[George]

Originally Posted by Revangelist

George, the fact you found verses that say you can lose your salvation makes my point. There is a paradox. So, I say both sides are true and I'm almost ridiculed for it. God says He's not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. But, there are those who perish. Thanks for your civil answer. I appreciate it.

The Bible has some "mysteries" (Mt. 13:11; Mr. 4:11; Lu 8:10; Ro. 11:25; 16:25; 1Co. 2:7, 4:1, 15:51; Eph. 1:9; 3:3-4,9; 6:19; Col. 1:26-27; 2:2; 4:3; 2Th. 2:7; 1Ti 3:9; Re. 1:20; 10:7; 17:5,7) some "great mysteries" (Eph. 5:32; 1Ti. 3:16); and "some things that are hard to be understood" (2Pe. 3:16).

They may appear to be be "paradoxes" to some, but Proverbs 8:8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

Our problem is not so much KNOWLEDGE, which many on this Forum obviously have. Our problem is DISCERNMENT; UNDERSTANDING; and WISDOM. Knowledge we can get from men (a school, a church, etc.). We can even get some discernment from others, but - understanding and wisdom come from Almighty God and He gives them to whom He will (1Corinthians 2:1-16).

After 50 years of contending (and sometimes being too contentious) for the faith, I have learned to avoid insincere people (sophists); kooks; hereticks; and reprobates. And I have very little patience with Bible "correctors" and Christian's who are in positions of leadership and authority who try to have dominion (2Corinthians 1:24) over the brethren (my 2 pet peeves) .

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

I sincerely hope that we can continue with a "civil" discourse.

Originally Posted by Revangelist

I've tried to have discussions on other threads and the minute it is discovered I'm a Pentecostal, I feel like a Gazelle in the midst of hungry coyotes. I don't think I'm alone here. My hopes are, on this thread, to have a Pentecostal-friendly place to discuss the issue of the King James Bible.

If the fact we are Pentecostal, Born again Christians bothers you, don't forget there are many other threads in this forum.

Revangelist, I too am a Gazelle on the killing field of modern versionist. You are not alone, glad to support you in this fight for the KJB 1611-1769 Bible.

In the service of Jesus Christ, Clyde

[George]

Re: My earlier post (3-24-08)

Christians are commanded to study "the word of truth" and to rightly divide "the word of truth" - I forgot to add that in view of the fact that there is only one clear verse commanding us to study and how to study: [2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.]

And since there are only two clear verses (that I know of) on how to rightly divide "the word of truth": Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little and
Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

If there are apparent differences in the scriptures (i.e. approximately 350 verses in support of "eternal security" and approximately 38 verses against) the only way to resolve this issue is through the the Biblical study methods outlined above (since our God is not the "author of confusion" - 1Corinthians 14:33) - and since the overwhelming evidence of scripture is in support of the preservation of the saints ("eternal security") there must be an explanation for the approximately 38 verses that "oppose" it.

The simple answer to this "problem" (for those of us who believe in "eternal security") is that those approximately 38 verses must apply to someone other than a Christian saved by the Grace of God in the church age. (Since both propositions cannot possibly be true in regards to a salvation that is referred to over and over again as being "eternal" and "for ever" - or else "eternal" & "for ever" have lost all meaning.)

We believe that we are "rightly dividing the word of truth" according to God's guidlines (Isaiah 28:9-10 & Isaiah 28:13). And so we strongly contend for our position and do not believe that it is a "careless doctrine", but on the contrary, it is a doctrine that has its roots in the overwheming testimony of scripture.

I don't mean to open up the subject again or revisit it - but perhaps this may shed some light on why many of us believe the way that we do, to some of those here on this Forum that may not share our same beliefs. (Again, if you ever come up with a verse list supporting your position I would be more than happy to check it out).

[Biblestudent]

Originally Posted by Revangelist

George, the fact you found verses that say you can lose your salvation makes my point. There is a paradox. So, I say both sides are true and I'm almost ridiculed for it. God says He's not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. But, there are those who perish. Thanks for your civil answer. I appreciate it.

As brother George points out, consider this statement:
"Every heresy is truth misapplied."

Some believe that a person is saved by believing only using Paul's epistles. others believe that a person is saved by believing and doing, using the Old Testament, the Gospels, the early part of Acts, and the books Hebrews through Revelation, which are not addressed to the Church Age saint.

For example, there are obvious differences in God's dealings with man between the "time past", the "now", and the "ages to come".

[atlas]

Revangelist,

The old style Pentecostals are not like this new bunch I have seen lately.

I did not say all Pentecostals are a cult, however some of this " new crowd is a cult." You seem not to notice I have said this two time on page two.


Atlas

There is a verse in the AV1611 that I wonder if anyone wantes to comment on.

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

It reads differently in the NKJV:

Acts 19:2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”

In the KJV, the word "since" is used. In the NKJV, "when" is used, changing the meaning.

In verse 6, it says, "And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied." KJV

"And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied". NKJV

Sure, I will....

It looks like the KJV is teaching the gift of the Holy Ghost happens after one believes unto salvation, and the NKJV the gift of the Holy Ghost happens at the same time. I wonder why more Pentecostals don't use the KJV for that reason?

[George]

Originally Posted by Revangelist

There is a verse in the AV1611 that I wonder if anyone wantes to comment on.

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

It reads differently in the NKJV:

Acts 19:2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”

In the KJV, the word "since" is used. In the NKJV, "when" is used, changing the meaning.

In verse 6, it says, "And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied." KJV

"And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied". NKJV

It has been said: "If someone is going to break their neck in Scripture - they are most likely going to do it in the Books of Matthew, Acts, and Hebrews!"

Matthew is the Gospel of the "King of the Jews" (pecularly Jewish).

Acts is a transitional Book - going from the Kingdom to the church. What takes place in the beginning of Acts is not the Gospel of the Grace of God, but an extension of the Gospel of the Kingdom (an offer by God to send the Lord Jesus back IF the nation Israel will repent of killing their Lord and Christ.)

In Acts Chapter 2 Look at WHO is speaking (Peter - a Jew). Look at WHO he is speaking to (ye men of Judea and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem; ye men of Israel; men and brethren; all the house of Israel) . Read the words carefully - This is a Jewish message about the fulfilling of a Jewish Old Testament prophesy (prophesied by a Jewish prophet {Joel} addressed to the nation of Israel or a Jewish King {the patriarch - David} testifying to the glory of the risen Lord - all Jews or Proselyte Jews).

In Acts Chapter 3 again the Apostle Peter is speaking again to WHOM?: "he answered unto the people ye men of Israel," ("the people" - what people? - "ye men of Israel") and peter goes on "The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go." [Acts 3:13]

Abraham-Isaac-Jacob? The God of whose fathers? Ye delivered up? This is clearly a Jewish message addressed to Jews - NOT the church. I could go on chapter after chapter until we come to Paul (the Apostle to the gentiles - the Apostle to whom the mysteries were "revealed).

And the book of "Hebrews" - the title should give us a "hint" to be extra careful in "rightly dividing" this book. The same goes for James - addressed to "the 12 tribes which are scattered abroad".

This is known as: "Rightly Dividing" 101 & Basic Bible study101. WHO said that? - WHO is he speaking to? The whole of the Bible is FOR us, BUT the whole of the Bible is not directly addressed TO us.

[Biblestudent]

Yes, and without "rightly dividing", I might as well say that the KJV teaches us not to eat pork.

Hey George, it is a pleasure to discuss with you. One of my best friends is like you in that regard. Iron sharpens iron. There's always built-in irritations with any disagreement, however, when incendiary remarks are eliminated, that makes for a more challenging discussion.

That said,

I believe the question you are asking me has to do with context of who is being addressed and who can apply a particular teaching today (sorry for the sloppy paraphrase).

The reason I believe the "gift of the Holy Ghost" with the evidence of speaking in other tongues is for today has to do with the following verses:

Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.


Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Galatians 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.


And again, thank you for being civil. On another thread, I was told I don't know Jesus because I didn't believe in the Calvinistic doctrine of pre-destination. That's when it's time to end the discussion.