Originally Posted by Brother Tim

I would like to know if Tony considers believer's baptism as practiced in the average Baptist church to be a sin.

Sorry guys I've been busy at work and trying to get caught up,
so just curious---now that we've all held hands and sang Kumbaya, did Bro. Tony ever answer this question above (?) because I thought it was an interesting question... I mean is that what the Grace Brethren hyperdispensational movement teaches these days?

[Kiwi Christian]

I'm an Independent Baptist so I voted yes. I believe it is one of only two ordinances given to the body of Christ to practise until the Lord returns, the other being the Lord's Supper.

Believer's Baptism is a wonderful figure of the salvation that has already taken place in the believer's life, to me it is an important Christian ceremony which publicly testifies of the new creature in Christ.

While water baptism is not required for salvation, I believe it is an important ingredient for the believer's testimony to the body of Christ, and so I encourage all new professing believers to be baptised in water as soon as possible, as a sign of their willingness to obey the scripture and witness their salvation publicly.

[Diligent]

You guys are free to discuss the questions posed. I have no problem with it at all. I just want it noted that Tony has been specifically asked to state (and by extension, advocate and defend) his position here. I will not tolerate anyone accusing him of tying to cause division. Just keep that in mind and have an edifying discussion.

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian

I'm an Independent Baptist so I voted yes. I believe it is one of only two ordinances given to the body of Christ to practise until the Lord returns, the other being the Lord's Supper.

Believer's Baptism is a wonderful figure of the salvation that has already taken place in the believer's life, to me it is an important Christian ceremony which publicly testifies of the new creature in Christ.

While water baptism is not required for salvation, I believe it is an important ingredient for the believer's testimony to the body of Christ, and so I encourage all new professing believers to be baptised in water as soon as possible, as a sign of their willingness to obey the scripture and witness their salvation publicly.

Well said Bro. Matt....

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

George, I'm not interested in getting into a fuss with Tony or seeing anyone else do so over this question. I would like to see Tony's explanation of his view so that I can better deal with the question should it arise by some seeker of truth. I know that Tony is settled in his belief as I am in mine, so fussing won't help. But there are those who are unsure. Should we not provide for them some evidence of what is right and wrong? It is not a minor "take-it-or-leave-it" decision.

I would like to know if Tony considers believer's baptism as practiced in the average Baptist church to be a sin.

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Water baptism as practiced by the average Baptist church is not a sin.
Water baptism as practiced today is a misapplication of a Jewish ordinance, part of the Law of Moses. It is a dead work and is the first step in consecrating a Levite:

Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Note Jesus Christ preached this Scripture in Luke 4, to announce this eminent "kingdom of priests":

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.


Le 8:6 And Moses brought Aaron and his sons, and washed them with water.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Hebrews 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Please read the Scripture passages above in context. As I have stated elsewhere, I will explode before I quote Scripture out of context.

The passages in Hebrews deal with the whole workings of the Law as a picture, a like figure, a similitude, of Jesus Christ and His work as Redeemer.

I'm sure I'll be asked to elaborate on that and so I'll stop here for now and wait for Brother TIm's comments and ask him two questions?

1. Was John the Baptist the first Baptist?
2. Why was Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh, baptized in water?

Grace and peace friends.

Tony

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Biblestudent

I agree with you, Brother George.
Brother Tony, although I also disagree with you, well, "grace and peace" to you!

The same to you my friend

Grace and peace again,

Tony

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by PB1789

Yes.

Because the Bible tells me so. Matthew 28:19 and Acts 8:35-39.

{ IIRC, the Quakers (Society of Friends) and maybe (?) The Salvation Army are/were the folks that don't hold to water baptism anymore...
odd, because there is not one verse in the New Testament that says to stop baptizing believers.}

PB, each Christian under God and in the Spirit has the right, protected also by the Constitution, to believe whatsoever he or she wishes regarding doctrine.

I do not accept Matthew 28 as anything more than similitudes nor do I accept it as Church Age doctrine. The reason being that one of the prime missions of the Great Commisson was teaching the Law: (verse 16 cross-references with brother Chette's reference to Matthew 10:7)

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Jesus said to the young man when he asked about salvation, believe on me and my resurrection, the gospel I have not yet given Peter and Paul, and you will go to heaven?

Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision to confirm the promises made unto the fathers (Romans 15:8) One of those promises was in Exodus 19 and Isaiah 61. Jesus taught not to follow the corrupt Talmud, the Writings of The "Rabbis" in Babylon,

Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mr 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

...but to teach the pure word of God in The Law Of Moses, as He showed and instructed:

Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I have not been given a commission to go into all the world and preach the Law, your and my commission is:

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Brother, I have promised to be direct without sarcasm. I am sincere in saying that I am trained in guerrilla war-counter insurgency/sniper/recon, escape and evasion and tracking. I have a law enforcement background in intelligence gathering and covert operations. Anyone who wishes to go with me in parachuting into North Korea, Cuba, or Iran; find the money, the Bibles in the given languages, and the night vision equipment, I'll be the first out the door of the transport. Because we have not nor ever did carry out the Great Commission to go into all the world and preach the Law Of Moses to all the world for the restoration of Israel in the Millenium.

The 144,000 of the book of Revelation will.

Grace and peace to you my friend, I don;t believe we have ever met or spoken.

Tony

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by George

Aloha brother Tony,

I thank God for your testimony in this Post and your conduct on this Forum, and if Brandon and others on the Forum are willing to hear you out, that's fine with me - as long as we can keep it "civil" and between "friends".

I had a friend who was an atheist (with a very high I.Q.) and who worked for me (as an electrician - off and on) - who was always on-time; who always gave 100%; who was honest and always did excellent work; and who never charged me enough. I always tried to be up-front with him; and treated him fairly; and always paid him over and above what he charged me.

This man had more integrity than most of the Christians I have dealt with in my life. And, at times, we could (and would) get into some pretty "heated" Bible discussions about creation, the Lord, the Bible, government, etc., - you name it, and we probably talked about it.

The most amazing thing to me is, no matter how "heated" it got between us - we never got "personal"; we never made personal attacks; we never called each other names; and when it was over we continued as if there was nothing wrong. We "agreed to disagree" - it's too bad Christian brethren can't do the same (and I'm not talking about professing "Christians" who are hereticks, false teachers, compromisers, Bible deniers, or Bible correctors, etc., etc., etc.)!

About five years ago this man was dying of cancer, and my wife and I visited with him at his home - twice shortly before he died. He was in awfully bad shape (the cancer was a quick acting variety), and had we known how serious it was sooner - we would have visited with him sooner.

For the two days that we visited with him we held his hand and prayed, and tried to talk with him (he was barely aware of our presence the second and last day), I don't know whether he believed the Gospel and received the Lord Jesus Christ as his Saviour or not, but this I do know, although he could barely speak, he would squeeze our hands, and he knew that we were there and that we really and truly cared about him personally, and about his eternal welfare.

If we would keep our eyes on the Lord Jesus Christ, and look at things in terms of eternity - and through Christ's eyes, (and as dying men and women - 2Corinthians 6:9), I believe that we would be far less likely to condemn a genuine fellow brother in Christ for holding a conviction different than ours about a matter, which I consider important, but which conveys no special grace or spiritual sanctification, other than physically following the example of the Lord; the disciples; the Apostles; and the Christians in the early church.

If you decide to proceed:

1 Corinthians 14:26 . . . . . . Let all things be done unto edifying.

1 Corinthians 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

1 Corinthians 16:14 Let all your things be done with charity.

George, I agree to everything you say here my friend.

George, I am not slighting Brandon asking you to "moderate this discussion". Brandon is boss, yes, but you didn't really much kinda sorta want to have this discussion because I know you've had it before and all that was generated was a lot of blood and bad feelings. If I am out of line, you paddle me. Would the rest follow George's request in discussing this? Let's have the discussion, a very contentious one it's true, but let's have it under George's requests above. I accept George as a friend and brother in Christ, as you all, and he also as my elder, because he has been in the Lord longer than me.

Grace and peace friends.

Tony

[chette777]

Tbones,

I agree with most of what you shared.

However I don't believe or think that Baptism is an OT law. I would not liken it to the washing of priest in the Aronic priesthood. As these Israelite's being Baptized by John. and John himself would be in violation for that washing was ONLY for the priestly cast. the washing was for cleansing and Baptism today in both the HS and the Physical are not for cleansing.

The Baptism was a new thing even Pharisees would not/could not say where it came from. For if it was from the Law, as you claim, they could of answered Christ's question of where it came from and Jesus would of had to tell them who gave him authority to forgive sin.

I agree with the dispensational view of Baptism of Matt 28

I also agree that Paul never taught it.

Bro Tim, Philip was a disciple and Apostle Matt 10:3 lists him as an apostle and he was present at the time of the Lords ascension. the point is it was a direct act of obedience to Matt 28 because Philip was a disciple and the Eunuch was a proselyte to Judaism.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

Well said, George. Excellent testimony as well.

Tony is my brother-in-arms as well as brother-in-Christ. I know that we can communicate on a decent spiritual level, if future discussion is warranted here. Most of the posters here know how to back off when it gets too hot, and the others are reminded to do so by the mature ones when necessary.

Then let's do it brother, and not take our eyes off enemy lines for too long.

Grace and peace

Tony