[chette777]

yes I am talking about Fellowship seeing our relationship is in Christ.


To Quote Forrest:
"YES. I believe we should confess, admit, acknowledge, and say “Lord that thought was sinful. Please help me to bring every thought captive to Christ and help me to think on things that are true, honest, just, pure, lovely, and full of virtue. I praise you Lord Jesus for the cleansing power of thy blood and the forgiveness of my sins.”

There are many things we are admonished in scripture to do. Put off, put on, put away, flee, yield, not yield, mortify the deeds of the flesh, grieve not, quench not, examine, cleanse ourselves, reckon, abstain, sin not, stop lying, stop stealing, be kind, have charity, forgive one another, and resist to name just a few.

All of this Biblical action is repentance, not confession. Of course I confess to God when I sin. I ADMIT IT. But not according to 1 John 1:9. I do it because there is Biblical precedence to do so and because I love my Father and will not abuse His grace. Will grace abound if I do not confess my sin? Will grace abound even if I continue to sin now that I’m saved? ABSOLUTELY. Chastisement, correction, scourging, rebuke, and reproof is a whole other doctrine. Stay usable, be like CHRIST. " end of quote

Forrest, this is what we are truly talking about. but one must admit one sin (which is a confession technically) and turn from it even as a Christian. we use different English words and that may be where some of the confusion. But as I asked in a earlier post how do we ungrieve the Holy Ghost when we sinned.

I see 1 John not as a doctrine as to something that must be held to for all our being is in Christ and our fellowship with God is based on his work alone. but as an application there would be nothing wrong with following that rule in order to Admit ones sinfulness and to repent.

[Forrest]

Greetings All. This lengthy (George-like ) post will require prayerful and careful contemplation. It may cause you to step out of the box of what you've always been taught or believed.

Brother Chette wrote on post #31: But as I asked in a earlier post how do we ungrieve the Holy Ghost when we sinned.

I’m not sure we are admonished to “ungrieve” the Holy Spirit. We are, however, told not to grieve Him. Here’s the way to not to grieve Him:

Ephesians 4:20-21 But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

Obey, follow, and do the things we have learned and been taught by Jesus. Here are some things we have learned from Him:

Ephesians 4:22-32 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. [U]Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice[U]: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Brother Chette wrote on post #31: I see 1 John not as a doctrine as to something that must be held to for all our being is in Christ and our fellowship with God is based on his work alone. But as an application there would be nothing wrong with following that rule in order to Admit ones sinfulness and to repent.

I agree with you here, Brother Chette. “I see 1 John not as a doctrine as to something that must be held to for all our being is in Christ and our fellowship with God is based on his work alone.”

I also agree that as believers we should admit and repent. Again, I do not believe 1 John 1:9 is a mandate given to “believers” to confess their sins for the purpose of being forgiven for their sins and cleansed from all unrighteousness. I think there is division in the word of truth from chapter one and chapter two of 1 John.

Brother Parrish wrote on post #25: I think if you cross reference 1 John with Ephesians 5 it may help you... the context in both of these passages is believers WALKING IN THE LIGHT, and FELLOWSHIP of the believer...check out this passage in Ephesians 5...

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

The children of wrath are the lost. The believer is now delivered from the wrath of God through Christ Jesus and is no longer called the child of disobedience. This is clear:

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

We are admonished to not be partakers with them (the children of wrath and of disobedience). Their unbelief and particular lifestyle is to be avoided in the life of a believer. More clarification is seen in Ephesians 2:2. “Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:”

8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord:
walk as children of light:

Brother Parrish wrote: Now you see that thing right there about walking as children of light? If God's children cannot walk in darkness, then why in the world would the Bible instruct us to walk as children of light? Keep reading...

Yes, indeed Brother Parrish, we were (past tense) the children of wrath and sometimes darkness. But now. But now we are light in the Lord. We are no longer the children of wrath who were sometimes darkness, but now we are the children of God whereby we cry Abba Father and the scripture says, “now are ye light in the Lord.” We do not need degrees in Greek or English to understand the tense of words like “now” and “ye are” to know this is a finished work of our redemption. Some other scriptures that connect our new life as light not darkness are:

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

There is no doubt, dear brother, that now that we are light in the Lord we should behave like children of light.

9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth; )

10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

The Holy Spirit directs us to the person of light who is Christ and guides us into goodness, righteousness, and truth. The Holy Spirit convicts me and reminds me that I am now in the light and I should behave like it. My outward practical and experiential walk should be full of light because of the reality that positionally, God who is light dwells in me, and I in Him.

1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. [The same God who IS light dwells in me.]

11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

Brother Parrish wrote: Now we see that thing about FELLOWSHIP again, and please notice the Christian can have FELLOWSHIP not only with God but also with the works of DARKNESS. WE have a choice every day of our lives who we will choose to have fellowship with. This theme fits perfectly with what John wrote in our KJV in 1 John right here...

Be very careful with the words here. If we’re not careful we will fail to rightly divide the word of truth in 1 John and here in Ephesians. Specifically, we are told to: “…have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.”

I agree. Run, flee, depart, don’t touch, turn from, avoid, resist, or look at the “unfruitful works of darkness” but rather reprove them. Can a Christian “have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness” after receiving Christ? Oh my! I blush!

This has nothing to do with the fellowship that I have with my Heavenly Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ. I guess we are too accustomed to the word “fellowship” as it relates to fellow believers and we fail to make the division. My fellowship with God is never based on my works (good or bad) but solely on the righteous merits of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and is therefore never broken. That’s what John is teaching in my opinion.

By the way, did you notice John makes distinction when he means to address believers specifically with words like “My little children” and “beloved” in his letter. And Paul is very clear in his address in Ephesians from the very beginning.

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

1 John 1:6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

That’s true. But I believe the “we” in 1 John 1:6 is speaking to unbelievers. Let me give you an example of what I'm trying to say. Let’s assume there are both saved and lost people on this Forum. I am addressing this statement to everyone—saved and lost who may be reading this post.

“This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. [I am addressing the Lost on this Forum with this statement] If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: [Now I’m addressing the saved on this Forum with this statement] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. [I am now addressing the Lost on this Forum with these statements] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

So if we, on this Forum, have not yet received and believed in Jesus Christ, according to the Bible we are not in fellowship with God. We are still in darkness. And we are not forgiven for our sins and cleansed from all unrighteous. If, however, we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us; ) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full." Do we believe this? I do.

Now I want to say something specifically to the believers on this Forum. To those who are in the light, in fellowship with God, and whose sins are continually cleansed by the blood of Jesus."My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

Brother Parrish, do you notice the clear division between “fellowship with him, and walk in darkness” in 1 John 1:6 and “fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness” in Ephesians 5:11. Now that we walk in the light (because we are now in the light through Christ) we have fellowship with Him and we should have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness.

I honestly think the reason Christians get hung up here is because they confuse the POSITIONAL forgiveness and cleansing (based on grace) with the PRACTICAL side of daily fellowship with our Lord (as it relates to our joy).

I agree with you with this exception. I think our joy is full from both our positional reality and our practical reality. And I do not believe our "fellowship" with God and the Lord Jesus Christ is ever broken because of my sinful behavior just like it is not maintained by my holy behavior.

There is a beautiful verse that sits right in the middle of 1 John 1 that is often overlooked, but I think it holds the key to the entire passage. WHY is John writing this? Here's your answer..."And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full." 1 John 1:4

Brother Parrish wrote on post #30: Forrest, that is interesting how you are in essence agreeing with us on the idea of confession of sin to God, but you are not seeing it in 1 John 1. So, what exactly is the Biblical precedence you are basing your confession on?

Again, I personally do not confess my sins according to 1 John 1:9 for the sole purpose of being forgiven of my sins and being cleansed from all unrighteousness now that I’m saved.

It's like saying:"God please forgive me" and Him replying, "I already have! That's why my Son died for your filthy, rotten sins." You plead: "Please God, cleanse me from all unrighteousness" and He replies, "I already have. That's why my Son shed His perfect and precious blood for your filthy, rotten sins. In my Son, you are now made into my righteousness and I have no unrighteousness. What is it you want to be cleansed from?"

Although I do not confess my sins for the sole purpose of being forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness, I do admit, acknowledge, and agree that God is right and I am wrong—I still commit sins. But I do not “confess” my sins in order to be forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness because that was done when I confessed my sins when I first received Christ back in 1979.

I believe that the blood of my Savior has already taken care of my sins once and for all and that confession of sin is no longer required in order to appease God, satisfy God, restore my fellowship with God and with Jesus Christ, put me back in the light, or to reactivate the cleansing power of the blood of Christ. I repent from sin because I do not want to fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

For me, the following scriptures serve as precedence to openly admit, acknowledge, and agree with God I still sin and that He desires for me to turn away from them and to Him.

James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

1 Timothy 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

2 Peter 1:5-10 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Romans 6:6-13 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Titus 2:11-15 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

[Winman]

Well, Rev 3:19 is written to believers, and it says to repent.

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

This shows clearly that a saved person can be out of fellowship with Christ, and that Christ will rebuke them and chasten them. And the believers here are told to repent. I do not know how you repent of a sin without acknowledging and confessing that sin.

I see it no different than our earthly family. When I was a child I did some wrong things which grieved my father. He did not kick me out of the family, but he did rebuke and chasten me a few times.

And the Bible teaches this very thing.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

So, while we may be saved, we still have a big problem with sin. And the Lord will chasten us for it.

Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. 5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

So, Christians can surely sin, and it does not go unnoticed by the Lord. He will chasten us and correct us. If you see a person who sins continually without being chastened, then that person is not truly saved, for God chastens all his children whom he loves.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Winman

Well, Rev 3:19 is written to believers, and it says to repent.

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

This shows clearly that a saved person can be out of fellowship with Christ, and that Christ will rebuke them and chasten them. And the believers here are told to repent. I do not know how you repent of a sin without acknowledging and confessing that sin.

I see it no different than our earthly family. When I was a child I did some wrong things which grieved my father. He did not kick me out of the family, but he did rebuke and chasten me a few times.

And the Bible teaches this very thing.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

So, while we may be saved, but we still have a big problem with sin. And the Lord will chasten us for it.

Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

So, Christians can surely sin, and it does not go unnoticed by the Lord. He will chasten us and correct us. If you see a person who sins continually without being chastened, then that person is not truly saved, for God chastens his children whom he loves.

No doubt. Christians can and do sin. Repent, no doubt. Stop sinning, no doubt. Obey, follow, love, and submit to Christ, no doubt. But where does the Bible specifically tell the believer, who is now IN Christ, our "fellowship" is broken with God or His Son as a result of sin and must be restored through confession or repentance of that sin? As you say, where does the Bible clearly say that?

1 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

1:5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;

1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Brother Winman, this letter was written to bunch of carnal, fleshly, sinful, believers. God is faithful even when we aren't. If you are called to the fellowship of His dear Son, nothing you do or do not do ever breaks that fellowship. Again, there is a huge difference between the fellowship we have with God in CHRIST JESUS and the fellowship we have with one another.

Suppose God appeared to you in person right now. Would your fellowship with Him be based on confession of all known sins or on the bases of being in Christ? Which is it?

Originally Posted by Forrest

Be very careful with the words here. If we’re not careful we will fail to rightly divide the word of truth in 1 John and here in Ephesians. Specifically, we are told to: “…have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.”

I agree. Run, flee, depart, don’t touch, turn from, avoid, resist, or look at the “unfruitful works of darkness” but rather reprove them. Can a Christian “have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness” after receiving Christ? Oh my! I blush!

Can they? YOU BET. A Christian can get into as much practical trouble as the unsaved man, and most certainly choose to have fellowship with unfruitful works of darkness. My question remains, If God's children cannot walk in darkness, then why in the world would the Bible instruct us to walk as children of light? If we cannot have fellowship with darkness then why the exhortation NOT to do it? That's why Paul told the fornicating Corinthian believers this...

Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. I Cor. 6:15-16

"Neither let US commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let US tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.... wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed LEST HE FALL." 1 Cor. 10:8-12

Originally Posted by Forrest

My fellowship with God is never based on my works (good or bad) but solely on the righteous merits of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and is therefore never broken. That’s what John is teaching in my opinion.

And that's where we disagree I suppose.
I think our JOY and FELLOWSHIP is based on our daily choices, and that is exactly what I think 1 John 1:7-9 is all about.
But again, to me that has nothing to do with our eternal security and our RELATIONSHIP. So we are not in total disagreement, and I respect your views.

I have heard that view before, but I honestly feel that to take that view creates an unecessary situation where you are forced to chop up 1 John 1 into a confusing passage of "now he is addressing the lost, and now he is addressing the saved and now he is addressing the lost again" (as you have suggested).
To me that just destroys the continuity of the passage and how it flows right into chapter 2 and the rest of the book.

I can see how one could reach that conclusion, but I don't think it's necessary, because I think it's done in order to avoid a problem that doesn't really exist in 1 John.

That's why I think 1 John fits so well with Eph. 5.
See I don't think God can have fellowship with sin, even if that sin is in the heart of the BELIEVER who just lied to his wife or stole something from his boss. Choosing to walk in the darkness of unconfessed sin is serious business, with serious consequences. I don't think God will give up on a believer like that, (see my illustration on the mud in the house), and I don't think that impacts our eternal RELATIONSHIP, but I think our FELLOWSHIP and our JOY is damaged. To me the passage is very clear; he is talking about WE, US, and OUR WALK, and OUR FELLOWSHIP...

"But if WE walk in the light, as he is in the light, WE have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth US from all sin."

Forrest, the fact that Jesus' blood cleans our DAILY SIN, as much as our POSITIONAL SIN, doesn't really pose a problem for me, and it never has. His precious blood not only CLEANSED sins of the past, it STILL CLEANSETH today. His blood didn't lose its power after we were saved, it has the power to CLEANSE us of every sin we ever commit—yesterday, today AND tomorrow. It is the blood of the ETERNAL covenant (Heb. 13:20).

As I said brother Forrest, I think there are good men on both sides of this, for example I know for a fact that John MacArthur teaches your view quite beautifully, and I think Matthew Henry's Commentary sees it the way I do, as shown here...

"The apostle then instructs the believer in the way to the continued pardon of his sin. Here we have, 1. His duty in order thereto: If we confess our sins, v. 9. Penitent confession and acknowledgment of sin are the believer's business, and the means of his deliverance from his guilt. And, 2. His encouragement thereto, and assurance of the happy issue. This is the veracity, righteousness, and clemency of God, to whom he makes such confession: He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, v. 9. God is faithful to his covenant and word, wherein he has promised forgiveness to penitent believing confessors. He is just to himself and his glory who has provided such a sacrifice, by which his righteousness is declared in the justification of sinners. He is just to his Son who has not only sent him for such service, but promised to him that those who come through him shall be forgiven on his account. By his knowledge (by the believing apprehension of him) shall my righteous servant justify many, Isa. liii. 11. He is clement and gracious also, and so will forgive, to the contrite confessor, all his sins, cleanse him from the guilt of all unrighteousness, and in due time deliver him from the power and practice of it."

[Forrest]

Born Again BELIEVER wrote: When I got born again, ALL my sins were forgiven, past present and future, no doubt or question about that.

Why then do you confess your sins if they are forgiven, past, present, and future? Don't say to restore your fellowship with God unless you can give the clear scripture that backs up your claim.

[Winman]

Forrest

You make excellent points there, but I still believe there is a difference between being saved and being in fellowship. You cannot be in fellowship without being saved, but you can be saved and out of fellowship.

Read 1 Cor 8 and 9 again.

1 Cor 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, to me, this is a great verse proving that we cannot lose our salvation. It is a promise that Jesus will keep us. As Bro Parrish said, this is our position in Christ. We are washed of all sin, and have the imputed righteousness of Christ. So, in God's eyes we are blameless.

1 Cor 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Now, I do see where a person could think this verse is a continuation of verse 8, and I believe it is also linked by the phrase "God is faithful". So again, it is an assurance that we will be kept and preserved by God unto the end. But I think the comma is important and it is making a new statement afterward. It is saying we are called unto the fellowship. So, this is a new subject, the scriptures are not talking about being preserved anymore, but now are talking about being called into fellowship.

Now look at the very next verse.

1 Cor 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Now what is happening here? Obviously there are some arguments and confrontations going on in the church. There is no fellowship here. And Paul is begging them to stop and be agreed in the same mind and judgement.

Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

So, here is an issue of broken fellowship in the church. They were all arguing and debating among themselves. And Paul is reminding them they were called "unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ".

[chette777]

Winman,

We need to be very careful in making the churches of Rev 2-3 to churches today

Again we need to rightly divide Rev 3. While some believe they are church age churches other believe they are Jewish Tribulational Churches. The reason being of all the scriptures from Rev2-3 stating one to ENDURE, REPENT, and OVERCOMETH in order, eat of the tree of life (we have life in Christ), shall not be hurt by the second death (we are free from wrath which is the second death), receive the morning star (we have already received Christ), will not have ones name removed from the book of life (our names are already written in the book of life securely never to be removed), be clothed in white raiment(we are already clothed in His righteousness), be made a pillar in the temple of God (we are already the temple), be able to sit with Christ on his throne (we are already seated in the heavenlies with the Lord)

Can you see the theological problems you would run into if this is the church age churches. Remember the book of Revelation is Prophecy not past you see. These are futuristic churches in the tribulation. if you make them churches today you will nullify all that Christ has done and you could teach that you can loose your salvation and position in Christ.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish

Can they? YOU BET. A Christian can get into as much practical trouble as the unsaved man, and most certainly choose to have fellowship with unfruitful works of darkness. My question remains, If God's children cannot walk in darkness, then why in the world would the Bible instruct us to walk as children of light? If we cannot have fellowship with darkness then why the exhortation NOT to do it? That's why Paul told the fornicating Corinthian believers this...

Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. I Cor. 6:15-16

"Neither let US commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let US tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.... wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed LEST HE FALL." 1 Cor. 10:8-12



And that's where we disagree I suppose.
I think our JOY and FELLOWSHIP is based on our daily choices, and that is exactly what I think 1 John 1:7-9 is all about.
But again, to me that has nothing to do with our eternal security and our RELATIONSHIP. So we are not in total disagreement, and I respect your views.

I have heard that view before, but I honestly feel that to take that view creates an unecessary situation where you are forced to chop up 1 John 1 into a confusing passage of "now he is addressing the lost, and now he is addressing the saved and now he is addressing the lost again" (as you have suggested).
To me that just destroys the continuity of the passage and how it flows right into chapter 2 and the rest of the book.

I can see how one could reach that conclusion, but I don't think it's necessary, because I think it's done in order to avoid a problem that doesn't really exist in 1 John.

That's why I think 1 John fits so well with Eph. 5.
See I don't think God can have fellowship with sin, even if that sin is in the heart of the BELIEVER who just lied to his wife or stole something from his boss. Choosing to walk in the darkness of unconfessed sin is serious business, with serious consequences. I don't think God will give up on a believer like that, (see my illustration on the mud in the house), and I don't think that impacts our eternal RELATIONSHIP, but I think our FELLOWSHIP and our JOY is damaged. To me the passage is very clear; he is talking about WE, US, and OUR WALK, and OUR FELLOWSHIP...

"But if WE walk in the light, as he is in the light, WE have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth US from all sin."

Forrest, the fact that Jesus' blood cleans our DAILY SIN, as much as our POSITIONAL SIN, doesn't really pose a problem for me, and it never has. His precious blood not only CLEANSED sins of the past, it STILL CLEANSETH today. His blood didn't lose its power after we were saved, it has the power to CLEANSE us of every sin we ever commit—yesterday, today AND tomorrow. It is the blood of the ETERNAL covenant (Heb. 13:20).

As I said brother Forrest, I think there are good men on both sides of this, for example I know for a fact that John MacArthur teaches your view quite beautifully, and I think Matthew Henry's Commentary sees it the way I do, as shown here...

"The apostle then instructs the believer in the way to the continued pardon of his sin. Here we have, 1. His duty in order thereto: If we confess our sins, v. 9. Penitent confession and acknowledgment of sin are the believer's business, and the means of his deliverance from his guilt. And, 2. His encouragement thereto, and assurance of the happy issue. This is the veracity, righteousness, and clemency of God, to whom he makes such confession: He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, v. 9. God is faithful to his covenant and word, wherein he has promised forgiveness to penitent believing confessors. He is just to himself and his glory who has provided such a sacrifice, by which his righteousness is declared in the justification of sinners. He is just to his Son who has not only sent him for such service, but promised to him that those who come through him shall be forgiven on his account. By his knowledge (by the believing apprehension of him) shall my righteous servant justify many, Isa. liii. 11. He is clement and gracious also, and so will forgive, to the contrite confessor, all his sins, cleanse him from the guilt of all unrighteousness, and in due time deliver him from the power and practice of it."

Okay, Brother. I'm attempting to rightly divide not chop.

My question remains, If God's children cannot walk in darkness, then why in the world would the Bible instruct us to walk as children of light? If we cannot have fellowship with darkness then why the exhortation NOT to do it?

A believer, in my opinion, never walks in darkness. He is always walking in the light. A believer can "have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness" and there is a distinction between "walk in darkness" and "fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness." We are not darkness but light in Christ, now behave that way and don't have any fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness.

[Winman]

Chette

That is a bunch of mumbo-jumbo. If I listened to you, I would think there might be two verses in the whole Bible that were written for me.

Jesus said in Revelations that he rebukes and chastens those whom he loves, and this is in perfect agreement with the scriptures I showed in Hebrews.

You should try reading the Bible without all these pre-conceived biases. I believe that all scripture is for me.

2 Tim 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.