[chette777]

Originally Posted by Fredoheaven

1. Revelation 12:1, heaven is where is where the sun, moon and the stars are mention. It is no longer a third heaven as it is supposed to be.
2.Revelation 12:3-4, surely the third heaven is not a home of a dragon so that his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven.

You are correct Fred. this verse is not the third heaven but the second where the Stars are. He is cast down from the third into the second where the firmament encases it. and then eventually he will be cast down to earth and he will draw the stars with him. this is not a past reference to some past event but actually a future event yet to take place. Remember Revelation is a book of prophecy not a narrative of past events.

This earth is where His sin began in eternity past and it will end here. after his eternal death in the lake of fire, then God does away with the first and second Heaven literally abolishing the 24/7TQ and everything enters into Eternity at the end of Rev 20. with a new Earth and heaven in Rev 21.

[BornAgainBibleBeliever514]

Seems like Satan has had access to the earth, the first, second and third heaven ever since he fell from perfection.
He's found in a physical embodiment in the Garden of Eden, he's the prince of the power of the air, and he has access to the throne of God.

About this supposed 24h Time Quantum:
by saying that things occured outside time (ie: eternity) according to some other eternal timeline, seems like a contradiction to what eternity is supposed to be.
Eternity shouldn't have a timeline, its outside of time. Its basically a continual state of being. To say that thing A happened before thing B during eternity would have to invent two kinds of time: the time we live in (24/7), a second imaginary time line outside of ours, and then eternity.

That's part of why it makes sense to me that Satan's iniquity was found in him during our 'TQ', in the Garden of Eden, since all of the references to him have a tense to them, and a passage puts him in the Garden before he sinned.

As for the music aspect, I think its very logical and probable that Lucifer was a master musician. Wether one can prove he was the worship leader is inconsequential, for his influence in music today is undeniable, both in secular and Christian genres.

[Winman]

Yes, it is clear to me that Satan is not cast out of heaven until the great tribulation. We know he has access to heaven because Rev 12:10 says he accused the brethren before our God day and night.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

And this must be the tribulation period as Rev 12:12-14 shows

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens (plural, which would include the 3rd heaven), and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The time, and times, and half a time are clearly the last 42 months of the great tribulation.

Besides Job, we have other verses showing Satan in heaven.

Zech 1:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? 3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. 4 And he (the LORD) answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

Only Jesus has power to forgive sin. This was Jesus in heaven, not outer space.

The argument that this is the 2nd heaven or outer space does not hold water. Revelations 12 clearly shows that Satan was cast out of the 3rd heaven where he accused the brethren before our God day and night, just as Satan was doing in Job and Zechariah.

Yet again, more scripture that contradicts the gap theory that claims Satan fell to earth between Gen 1:1 and 1:2.

[BornAgainBibleBeliever514]

But it seems like he has access to all three already. He was indeed on earth a few times:
In the Garden of Eden, before and after his fall;
When the devil tempted Jesus in the wilderness;
Entering into Judas Iscariot Luke 22:3, John 13:27;
Satan himself says he walks to and fro in the earth Job 1:7;
Standing beside Joshua before the angel of the Lord in Zec 3:1;
Jesus called Peter Satan (indwelt?) Matt 16:23, Mark 8:33, Luke 4:8;
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven Luke 10:18.

Then there are the plentious references of him interfering in the things of men, although not locally present on earth per se.

Perhaps his casting out of heaven in Revelation is permanant.


Remember:

Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

[chette777]

that would be special access not unlimited access.

in the second starry heaven and the third he has unlimited access.

He will not stand at the Great White Throne Judgement to make accusations against anyone, Praise God.

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God. This is the earth in it's original state before Lucifer's fall where he brought darkness and destruction came upon it with a flood Genesis 1:2. God did later plant a garden east in Eden. Eden was God's name for the earth. and he in his defiled state also walked there. But he never walked in that Garden of Genesis 2 in his perfect state.

[Winman]

Too bad you don't have scripture to support all that.

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

These verses say about Satan

1) He was full of wisdom and perfect in beauty
2) He had been in Eden the garden of God
3) He is the annointed cherub that covereth
4) He was upon the holy mountain of God
5) He was perfect until iniquity was found in him (vs 15), he sinned (vs 16)

Now we see a change. The Bible says God will cast Satan out, but does not specify when.

6) "therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. (vs 16)

7) "Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. (vs 18)

So, this does not contradict scripture where Satan has access to heaven in Job, Zechariah, or Revelations 12.

This tells me Satan was perfect and walked in the Garden of Eden. This absolutely contradicts your gap theory that Satan fell between Gen 1:1 and 1:2

After Satan sinned the scriptures say God "will" cast Satan out of the mountain of God, and destroy him. But it does not specify when. All the words God uses are future ("I will" , "therefore will I" "it shall" etc...).

We know from Job, Zechariah, and Revelations 12 that Satan still has access to God in heaven. And Satan has not been destoyed yet, so these are future events.

It also says Satan will be brought to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. This agrees perfectly with Rev. 12

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

So, the saved in heaven will witness Satan being cast to the ground, which before did accuse their brethren day and night before God, and they will rejoice. But it is also obvious that NOW is Satan cast down to the earth because "Woe" is pronounced upon the inhabitants of the earth because Satan has great wrath knowing his time is short.

And we know this is the tribulation because he persecuted the woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.

This is Israel and identifies with Joseph's dream.

Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

Joseph is the twelve star.

And we know it is the tribulation because the woman is nourished for a time, times, and half a time.

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Notice that Satan himself sees that he is cast to the earth during the tribulation.

[chette777]

Sure there are. you just have to rightly divide. Like dividing to find there are three types of "church" or finding that there is more than one "Gospel" in the New Testament. in this case it comes from dividing everything into two dispensations eternal and 24/7. By rightly dividing in that way you will find three "earth's".

if you study and divide properly you will see there was rain before Genesis 7. unlike what we have been taught that it never rained before the flood of Noah. But It did rain after men began to till the earth.

Job, Ezekiel and Revelations are all limited accesses unlike all free run privileges he had prior to his fall.

yes I agree the woman in Rev12 is Israel no doubt about that.

his casting out is like his sentence it is in steps. God is still using Satan to do His will.

[chette777]

P.S.

And remember he is no longer covering what ever it was he was created to cover. though he may hold that title. so he has no access to cover as he did before. If he did lead worship he is limited to access the multitude of Angels for he no longer does that if he did in eternity past. so obviously his access into the third heaven is limited.

[Fredoheaven]

Originally Posted by Winman

Fredoheaven

Yes, I agree with you, God can be everywhere. But that is not the picture a person would get from reading Job without bias.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

This sounds like a very formal affair to me. God did not go to meet the angels, they came to present themselves before the Lord.

This almost sounds like a military inspection to me.

And Satan left God's presence, the Lord did not depart from Satan.

Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

I think the problem is that everyone assumes that sin cannot enter heaven. But that cannot be so, all sinners will stand before God when he is on the Great White Throne.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

These verses are absolutely speaking of the unsaved (the dead). And they are in heaven, standing before God who is sitting on the great white throne.

It is after Satan, his angels, and the unsaved are cast into the lake of fire that the Bible says no sin shall enter heaven.

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

I am not trying to cause controversy here, but when I read the scriptures I am told that Satan can still come and go and enter heaven at times, and has not been cast down to the ground yet.

It seems that wicked dead to be jugded at the Great White Throne will not be a literal heavens door, hence in Revelation 20:11 states that "...there was not found a place for them". The dead, small and great and the Bible speaks of them as standing before God is not to be intrepreted as they were all parading at the very ground of the third heaven or God's abode. The scripture is silent as to where they will judge, maybe an empty space not being mention in the bible. By the way can you or anyone help in telling me where was God before He created the heaven and the earth?

Jude 25
www.fredsites.weebly.com

[Fredoheaven]

Originally Posted by Winman

Too bad you don't have scripture to support all that.

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

These verses say about Satan

1) He was full of wisdom and perfect in beauty
2) He had been in Eden the garden of God
3) He is the annointed cherub that covereth
4) He was upon the holy mountain of God
5) He was perfect until iniquity was found in him (vs 15), he sinned (vs 16)

Now we see a change. The Bible says God will cast Satan out, but does not specify when.

6) "therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. (vs 16)

7) "Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. (vs 18)

So, this does not contradict scripture where Satan has access to heaven in Job, Zechariah, or Revelations 12.

This tells me Satan was perfect and walked in the Garden of Eden. This absolutely contradicts your gap theory that Satan fell between Gen 1:1 and 1:2

After Satan sinned the scriptures say God "will" cast Satan out of the mountain of God, and destroy him. But it does not specify when. All the words God uses are future ("I will" , "therefore will I" "it shall" etc...).

We know from Job, Zechariah, and Revelations 12 that Satan still has access to God in heaven. And Satan has not been destoyed yet, so these are future events.

It also says Satan will be brought to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. This agrees perfectly with Rev. 12

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

So, the saved in heaven will witness Satan being cast to the ground, which before did accuse their brethren day and night before God, and they will rejoice. But it is also obvious that NOW is Satan cast down to the earth because "Woe" is pronounced upon the inhabitants of the earth because Satan has great wrath knowing his time is short.

And we know this is the tribulation because he persecuted the woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.

This is Israel and identifies with Joseph's dream.

Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

Joseph is the twelve star.

And we know it is the tribulation because the woman is nourished for a time, times, and half a time.

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Notice that Satan himself sees that he is cast to the earth during the tribulation.

In Ezek. 12 refers to Lucifer when he was not yet cast off. There was all there "full of wisdom and beauty" etc. "Now we see a change. The Bible says God will cast Satan out, but does not specify when. " I guess what the Lord God cast was not Satan, it was the annointed cherub referring to Lucifer. The name of Satan in the Bible never refers to the one decsribe in Ezek. 12, though I believe that Lucifer was named later as Satan by virtue of his casting down.

Jude 25