begin part 3 rom 9



So we see from our study so far of romans 9, that paul is dispeling the Ideal that the national jews have been foresaken and Gods promises to them nullified. Paul teaches that:



#1 That the salvaic promises were not for national israel in the first place, but spiritual Israel..9:6



#2, then he Illustrates that not all of Abrahams descendents were heirs of promise by the story of Isaac vs 7-9



#3, he continues his teaching, that not all of Isaacs children are included in the covenant promises with Jacob and Esau vs10-13



#4, vs 14 Paul anticipates the humanistic response, knowing that what he teaches gives the sense that God chooses who He wants to have salvation, regardless of the actions and deeds of men. hence making it appear that God is unfair, so you know paul is teaching a Calvinistic view point about unconditional election and not the popular freewill Armenian viewpoint which is anti scriptural..



Now lets look at how Paul meets with this humanistic thought of God being unrighteous..vs 15-18



15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.



He answers by referring back to a declaration God made years ago to moses,when moses asked or inquired about seeing Gods Glory..ex 33:



17And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

18And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.



19And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.



Gods respond was the declaration of His Great I AM personage in Stating That He is absolutely sovereign in and of Himself, and He will Dispense of His graciousness [grace] and mercy on whomever He will..



This is Gods Glory , His absolute prerogative to do as He pleases. His GodHood is His Glory.. No one has a right to expect or have any claims on Gods grace or mercy..



Gods Glory is His Indisputable sovereignty over all His creation. doing whatever he pleases..



dan 4:



35And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?



ps 115:



3But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.



God given faith bows to this revelation of Almightiness..heb 11:



6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.





So then salvation or favor with God is not because of vs 16, who wills it, who earns it, who puts forth an effort to get it, but solely on Gods Absolute prerogative on whether or not He wants to be merciful to an individual..



notice vs 17 He uses pharaoh as an example as to one God in His purpose for this man, not to show mercy to, but in fact one to whom He chooses to show His power and wrath upon.



And let me say this dear reader, you could be one as pharoah was , that is one who God has raised up to be an example of His wrath..



God showed His power in hardening pharaohs heart..



Lets look at some scriptures..



ex 4:



21And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.



Gods power hardened pharaohs heart.. Notice the words I will [ Gods Sovereignty, Glory]



It does no good reader to say that pharoah hardened his own heart as in ex 8:



15But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite; he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.



because he hardened his own heart because God had decreed that his heart be hardened as the Lord said..



Note: We do Just as God decrees for us to do..



Note this great monarchs heart was in Gods Hand and as prov teaches prov 21:



1The king's heart[phoaroah] is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.



but lets go back to God hardening pharaohs heart..



ex 7:3



3And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.



ex 7:



13And he hardened Pharaoh's heart that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.



ex 7:



14And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.





ex 7:



22And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.





ex 8:



19Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.



ex 8:



32And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.



ex 9:



7And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go.



ex 912



12And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.



ex 9



34And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.





ex 9 35



35And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses.



ex 10:1



And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:

ex 10:20



But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.

10:27



But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.

ex 11 10



And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.

ex 14 4



And I will harden Pharaoh's heart that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon his entire host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. And they did so.





ex 14 8



And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand.





ex 14 17



And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.



out of about 20 references of pharaohs heart being hardened, by Gods I will only 2 refer to pharaoh hardening his own heart and at least one of them says as the Lord said he would implying, did have a choice in the matter ? No..



But yet false religionist will deny that God hardened pharaoh heart but firs pharaoh hardened his own heart, that's incredible. And these be folk who say they believe the bible as the word of God..



But notice the last reference ex 14:17



As God being true to His word, He hardened pharoah heart right unto his destruction, along with his armie..



note: hell is prepared for the devil and his angels...



Gods Glory and power was manifested in this monarchs destruction..



We witnessed the Irresistibleness of Gods Sovereign Power over the so called freewill of man, yeah right, pharaoh was like a puppet in Gods hand, as every other human being in this world..



End of pt 3

Beloved 57 , Rom.9:16 pretty much sums it all up , its not of him that willeth , paul , our example on the damascus road did he have free will or was it all God's mercy and grace ? he was in unbelief. i have asked this question numerous times but no one has an answer , if it don't fit the freewill line of thinking they avoid it , thats not the way to study God's Word , all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine. thanks for your posts i always learn something on these forums .
Grace to me

if it don't fit the freewill line of thinking they avoid it

I see, all the verses that contradict freewill, its amazing anyone can believe that. And when you read the bible , from page to page, chapter to chapter it teaches Gods will is supreme over mans will..

[Biblestudent]

Originally Posted by beloved57

Yes only the elect are saved, all else have been ordained to eternal death..

"All" - you mean "elect"? All elect are ordained to eternal death?

[pbiwolski]

Rom. 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The condition of the free gift is found in verse 17...
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

You gotta receive it. AS TO PAUL, he had to receive it too, and he did.

I Cor. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received ,...(the gospel of the grace of God)

Was Paul "forced" to receive this gospel? It's not recorded so you falsely assume that he was.
It's been posted that Christ came to save his people from their sins. That's what He came to do, but did it happen? No. It was then overlooked that he came unto his own and his own recieved him not. BUT as many as received him, to THEM gave he power to become the sons of God....
Jesus Christ offered deliverance to the entire nation, but as a nation they rejected Him. He came to save a people that chose Ceasar as king rather than Himself.
God's saving grace is also offered to sinful man, but the gift must be received.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.

The depraved, unregenerate, enemy of God must receive the gift.

The condition of the free gift is found in verse 17...
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

You gotta receive it. AS TO PAUL, he had to receive it too, and he did.

Thats not teaching a condition sir, thats your forcing it to say that..

The elect recieve it grace and the gift by Jesus christ..

rom 5:


11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

It is by his efficasious death that we [ the elect] recieve its blessings..

To recieve is to have been effectually given..

jn 1:

16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Jesus christ gives of his fullness to his elect , his body, his church..

also john says this about recieving...

jn 3:

27John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.


So you need to go back to the drawing board lol..

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.

even this verse you dont understand, this verse teaches that grace brings salvation in its power and efficasiousness, not offer salvation..lol..

You dont even believe this verse lol

[pbiwolski]

Originally Posted by beloved57

To recieve is to have been effectually given..

jn 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Jesus christ gives of his fullness to his elect , his body, his church..

So John the Baptist was preaching to the body of Christ???

Originally Posted by pbiwolski

So John the Baptist was preaching to the body of Christ???

What else ? Why you cant believe scripture ?

[pbiwolski]

Originally Posted by beloved57

also john says this about recieving...

jn 3:27John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

And what was "given from heaven?" How about vs. 16 when God "gave his only begotten Son? ...that the world through him might be saved."

I know, you have brains, you have verses, you have explanations for everything.

Here's one: If your doctrine is absolute, then explain the following...

I Cor. 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

How could baptism and preaching with wisdom of words possibly do this? To the elect, nothing can hinder their election. To the "reprobate," nothing can pull them out of their condition. So what's wrong with Paul? Does he think how he performs his calling can affect the results?