[Greektim]

Has anyone run into Progressive Dispensationalism or hold to PDism themselves?

By the way, Progressive Dispensationalism is like ultra-dispensationalism - it is not Dispensationalism!

[Brother Tim]

Sorta' like the NKJV is not a KJB!

Score one for the ol' man! Nothin' but net!

[Greektim]

[Luke]

What I am saying is that Salvation is different in different dispensations.

In the end it's the same. Everyone who is ever saved will be saved by faith in the blood of Jesus Christ.

OT Saints went to paradise, until Christ died for them.
We look to the cross, and His shed blood for our sacrifice.
Even Abraham was in Paradise waiting for Christ.
During the tribulation, people are washed AFTER they are saved.

ALL THROUGH THE BLOOD.

But, please correct me if I am wrong, where does an Old Testament saint have faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ in order to be saved? That's all we need today right? Faith in the Gospel (1 Cor 15:1-4). No works, nothing. His righteousness imputed to me.

This gospel wasn't even known by the Apostles until Paul told them. He said it was a mystery. It had not been revealed wholly in times past. He said it was "my gospel", given to him by revelation of Jesus Christ.

If this gospel is the same one that OT saints believe to get to Heaven, why does Paul say it was a mystery until Jesus revealed it to him?

Now, we know that when OT saints died, they didn't go to heaven. Why? Because they weren't washed in the blood. They were still under the Law. They went to paradise. How did they get to Paradise?

If you say "Believing in God", and we are trying to harmonize all scriptures, then what about James 2:14? Even the devil believes etcetc

So my question is not "How is an OT saint saved" because the answer is "by the blood". But they only had the opportunity to be saved if they went to paradise. So how did an OT saint get to paradise?

[Easy E]

Bro Luke,

It seems like we are about the same age and we are both going to Bible school to study the Book. It also seems like we have some similar experiences and questions and convictions, also. Amen, that's a good thing!

One thing that has frequently popped up when questions like this have bounced around in my brain is, Ecclesiastes 12:13,14.

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

For God shall bring every work into judgment with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Here faith and works are clearly "in the equation". Fear (arguably not a NT thing, but that is another question, Paul never tells us to "fear God") and Keep his commandments. This is faith and works. These were both necessary for an old testament Jew to get into Paradise.

What works(commandments)? Well when you sinned, you did the proscibed rememdy that is talked about in Leviticus, Deut, etc- killing lambs, bulls, turtledoves, etc. You still had sin in you, but you (this is only my understanding, very well could be wrong) got the sin washed and you had none on you. If you endured to the end this way, you could go to Paradise but not heaven. They were there until Jesus came and preached to them and they accepted him as their awaited Messiah and then went with him to heaven.

Well, I am just waiting for someone to pick this apart. Should be fun. Hope this helps.

Just to clear up an earlier statement, the Berean Bible Society DOES believe the Lord's supper should be celebrated by the Church (Body of Christ). Also, the issue of water baptism is explained in their website articles, etc. They have been viewed as 'Ultra/Hyper-dispensationalist' in the past, but that's usually because there is no Biblical, rightly-divided refutation to their teachings.

[Biblestudent]

Originally Posted by Why I Eyes Ya!

Just to clear up an earlier statement, the Berean Bible Society DOES believe the Lord's supper should be celebrated by the Church (Body of Christ).

Oh, sorry, my error. I was not able to really check their teaching about the Lord's Supper. I read somewhere that some ultra-dispensationalists don't believe that it should be observed today. I forgot that Stam was the founder of BBS. I had read Stam's book years ago and he does believe in the Lord's Supper, but not in water baptism.

However, concerning water baptism, there has been Biblical refutations written in answer to their unbelief in water baptism. The fact that Paul mentioned "ordinances" (plural), and that the Lord's Supper is one of them, than what's the other one?

[George]

Originally Posted by Luke

Hi,

I am quite confused. On the one hand, I have never really taken a serious study of the Bible (but I am enrolling in TBDI as soon as my text books arrive. Ordered them two weeks ago ), but on the other hand, I have gradually moved towards the position held by dispensationalists.

I am inclined to believe that Jesus gospel and Paul's gospel are different. Not in all aspects, but in it's purpose. Jesus Gospel was of righteousness in regards to the Kingdom coming. Paul's Gospel was of imputed righteousness by Christ's death burial and resurrection. There are similarities between the two, and the Gospel of John is almost Pauline in doctrine.

So my question is this, and it may seem ignorant, so please forgive me:

If the gospel of the Grace of God (Paul by revelation of Jesus Christ) and the Gospel of the Kingdom (Jesus Christ & John the Baptist) are different, how exactly?

If they are not, how does one reconcile a works based Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven, with a faith without works based Gospel of the Grace of God?

I cannot understand "reformed" theology (including amillennialism & calvinism), because there seem to be too many contradictions within scripture.

Aloha brother Luke,

I've been reluctant to recommend brother Ruckman's works, because he is so often misunderstood, and I don't want to be Labeled a "Ruckmanite", but in this case I have to make an exception, and do so because I do not think that you could find a better book to explain "Dispensations" than Dr. Peter Ruckman's "How to Teach Dispensational Truth".

The Book is only 87 pages long, so it is not a deep "treatise" on Dispensational Truth, instead it is more of an "outline" for further study (with literally hundreds of sources sited). Here is the "Table Of Contents":

Preface
Backgrounds of "Dispensationalism"
What is "Dispensationalism"?
Locating the Time Periods
Noting Exceptions to the Rule
Examining the Covenants
A major Dispensation
The New Testament in His Blood
Salvation in the Great Tribulation
The Second Part of the New Testament
Dispensational Outlines

The following Quote comes from the "Preface":

"IN this work, you will see why "rightly dividing the word of truth" is the proper method of studying the Holy Scriptures. We call this type of study an attempt to grasp "dispensational Truth" - the truths that apply to DIFFERENT dispensations in the Bible. "Differences" divide people. Differences put division between people and things. Thus "differences" divide scriptural passages (and sometimes verses, and even sentences) into separate, segregated units. It is a negative operation. It is the operation given to us by the Holy Spirit, in the King James Authorized Version (any edition, from 1611 o 1980), and found in not other English Bible in the world, including the NEW KJV.

In this book brother Ruckman names at least a couple dozen men who taught about "dispensations" long before Darby, Scofield, and Clarence Larkin (probably the best of them all) came along.

Here is one more Quote from Chapter Two ("What Is a Dispensation?"):

The Greek word, for this english word, is "oikonomia", and it doesn't mean a "period of time" at all; it means "the laws by, which a household is operated, or the way the master of a house arranges his household." Our word "ecumenical" comes from this word. Still, this word has been used, ever since 1700, to mean "a period of time." This, of course, is due to the fact that as Master of the house (Hebrews 3:2; Ephesians 2:19), God sets up different ways of running His "family" at different times, according to His Own Wisdom. TIME BRACKETS show up where alterations in method and protocaol take place. Clarence Larkin's Dispensational Truth is the real grand-daddy of all the work done since 1929. It is a superb, scriptural work; but, in constructing the charts, the time element is very conspicuous; it has to be. The law was given at a certain time, in a certain place. Christ died on the cross at a certain time, in a certain place, etc. Larkin's charts are well done; they are excellently drawn, and everything in them, that is true, scripturally, can be found in ANY edition of a King James Bible. No knowledge of Greek or Hebrew is necessary to understand one "dispensational" teaching in the entire book of over four hundred pages. Before Larkin (Scofield, 1909, for example), a number of dispensations were listed and commented on with several hundred scriptural cross references (see p. 6).

I do not think that you could go wrong if you could obtain this book and read it. "Dispensationalism" is a very controversial and often mis-understood subject and brother Ruckman does a superb job separating all of the "competing" ideas concerning this doctrine; such as, defining "hyper-dispensationalism" or "ultra-dispensationalism", of which brother Ruckman is often accused of believing and/or promoting, but which he certainly does not.

I hope this may be of some help to you - and perhaps you will understand why I have been so late in replying to your question.

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by George

I do not think that you could go wrong if you could obtain this book and read it. "Dispensationalism" is a very controversial and often mis-understood subject and brother Ruckman does a superb job separating all of the "competing" ideas concerning this doctrine; such as, defining "hyper-dispensationalism" or "ultra-dispensationalism", of which brother Ruckman is often accused of believing and/or promoting, but which he certainly does not.

Hyper-dispensationalist: someone who divides more than the other guy.

[George]

Originally Posted by Diligent

Hyper-dispensationalist: someone who divides more than the other guy.

Right on Brandon - You couldn't be more right if you had written an essay on the subject!