[Luke]

I'll edit this later - sorry I haven't been around. I'll post up my thoughts on all this shortly

[Luke]

Oops, guess I can't edit, but here is my reply

BibleBeliever - I find Ray's methods to be good. It's nothing new, as he himself claims, but he has made it popular, along with his pal Kirk Cameron. The presentation of the gospel is clear and biblical. As biblical as you can get. The Law, followed by Grace of God.

The two major problems I see with Ray's ministry as it stands today is this

i) His invitation is unbiblical. It is not simply "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" but focuses heavily on repentance, and puts repentance as an action, or work (although many will deny that). It makes salvation relative.

I have learnt something recently. In my endeavours to combat Lordship Salvation, I almost disregarded repentance completely, but have come to see that we must repent from SIN, not sinS. We have a sin nature, and we need to repent of that. We must come to God admitting we are sinners, and we have sinned, and can do nothing without Him. However, Ray's repentance is "God, I repent of my sins (name some of them)".

Now, what if the believer goes and does that very same sin again? Maybe it's something gross, like drunkenness, or fornication. Or maybe it's something like lying. They are all sins. So we have this dilemman in Romans 7, where the believer sincerely desires to be rid of their sin, but have been told things like "until they repent of it they cannot be saved" and they can't stop sinning until they get saved, so they remain either lost, or they are saved with confusion and doubts, and are useless either way.

His invitation is unbiblical

ii) His ministry is one of many ministries that have popped up recently that focus on DOUBT.

Basically, Ray's ministry, along with John MacArthur, Paul Washer and a bunch of others, have built up a ministry of doubt.

If you are saved by the blood and know it, they want you to not know it.

Instead of encouraging believers to simply examine ourselves to see if we are in God's will and in the faith (which is not calling into question our salvation at all), they tell believers to continually examine themselves, AND everybody else to see if they are saved. It's not enough to believe in the atonement of the blood of Christ. They claim things like "If you are not continually repenting every day, you are on your way to hell" - Paul Washer.

Their entire ministry is a ministry of doubt. Three of Macarthur's books that I know of are all about this - "The Gospel according to Jesus", "Hard to Believe - the High Cost and Infinite value of following Jesus" and "Faith Works".

Don't get me wrong, I understand the sincerity behind there position. They see the quick prayerism crowd (and I think they are wrong too), and have tried to combat it, but in doing so, have taken the opposite end of the field.

While quick prayerism removes any notion to doing any good works as evidence of salvation, lordship salvationists remove discipleship, growing in grace, the freeness of salvation etc.

[peopleoftheway]

Sadly Brother Luke, In all these teachings of lordship salvation, by Comfort and whoever else is teaching it, all roads lead to one place, ROME!
The Pope would be proud that they have added works to salvation, now they are all one step closer together. There is that middle ground they shall meet on.
Not for me, NOT EVER! I will believe and have Faith in the fact that My Father In Heaven sent his only BEGOTTEN Son to die on the cross to pay the penalty for MY SINS, my sins before salvation and my sins after salvation, until the day I am called home and made PERFECT by Him. Until then I am a wretched sinner and when I do sin, yes I DO pray that My LORD and Saviour Jesus Christ forgives me. If I name some of those sins then I would become self righteous because I would be picking out a particular sin, and ignoring one that GOD knew about but I didn't, therefore we should accept the fact WE ARE ALL MISERABLE SINNERS and ask forgiveness for our SIN, its universal we do it, even unaware we do it, so come to the LORD knowing you are an unworthy sinner and ask forgiveness for that simple fact in bold.
And hold fast in the Hope that is in Jesus Christ and his return to deliver us from imperfection to perfection, into glorified Bodies.

1st Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

[chette777]

actually it leads to "Mystery BABYlon MOTHER of all harlots and abominations". the more recent Roman Church have and are just promoting what has been ongoing since before the tower of Babel. the worship of a mother and her baby. found as far back as recorded in the Sumerian and Acadian(SP?) cuniform tablets unearthed in Iraq in the late 1800's and early 1900's.

these reliegious practices handed down from Babel to the Roman church today are nothing new and end in an attempt to bring all men together in one worship and one government under the Devil himself.

it is the mother of all harlots (false gods and idols) and abominations (false religious practices) and it all came from teh Devil even before the flood by one of the sons or daughter in laws of Noah.