Originally Posted by MC1171611

The problem is when people start applying the doctrines found within the Gospels that problems arise. Jesus preached a different gospel and taught different doctrine to a different group of people, and while we can get great Historical and Spiritual or Practical truths out of those books (ALL Scripture is for our learning), to take one's Doctrine from such a book is to confuse Scripture.

Like I said on my next to most recent blog entry (link in my signature), the Bible is all FOR you, but it's not all TO you. To try to apply the whole Bible TO you doctrinally is the most foolish thing a person could do with the Bible other than not believing it.

I must be a very foolish person. I actually believe that ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness (2 Tim. 3:16). I believe The Sermon on the Mount is for me, as well as the Ten Commandments. I believe in "the Everlasting Gospel" of Revelation 14, that I am to fear God, keep His commandments, and have faith in Jesus.

What does it matter if we have the inspired, preserved Word of God if we can essentially negate so much of it as "somebody else's mail" ?? I have never understood this rationale....and you don't have to explain it to me as I have corresponded with a pastor who believes it for several months to no avail.

I realize I am in the minority in my view on this forum and do not wish to get into a debate about it. I just needed to voice my objection based on 2 Tim. 3:16.

Shalom,

Tandi

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by Tandi

What does it matter if we have the inspired, preserved Word of God if we can essentially negate so much of it as "somebody else's mail" ?? I have never understood this rationale...

How many big boats have you built? How many times have you marched around Jericho? How many lambs have you sacrificed on an altar?

Everyone makes divisions in the Bible and everyone knows that some of what's in it isn't for them to do. The question is how do you divide what is and isn't for you.

This topic has been hashed out many times already on this forum, and as you say you've already been over it, so I write this for the benefit of any on-lookers and lurkers you may come across it.

[Josh]

Amen Tandi, I agree.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Samuel

"Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:" This is the part I was referring to, and the difference in opinion what becomes of this branch.

No need to debate Samuel. I realize we all differ on some scriptures occasionally. I am still one those Christians who believes Jesus when He said, “A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another” (John 13:34-35).

On a brief side note, two of my children were just at the “Wild’s Music Conference” near you. They try to go each year with a group of other young adults from our church. They really like your part of the country.

Concerning John 15:2, let’s try to rightly divide the word of truth in order to understand “taketh away”.

“Every branch in me....”

I guess we would all agree that the branch represents a born-again believer who is in Christ. Once we are in Christ we are eternally in Christ. We will always be in Christ. Our works or pious behavior did not put us in Christ in the first place so our works or bad behavior will not take us out of Christ. We are secure in the "know so" hope of eternal salvation because it had nothing to do with us in the first place. It's the mercy, grace, power, and sufficiency of God through Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

1 John 5:11-13 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

John 3:17-18 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

“Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away…”

Since we have clearly established in scripture the fact that once a sinner is born from above he can never be unborn. From this truth we understand that the words “taketh away” could not possibly mean that we are utterly removed from the True Vine.

In this “parable” Jesus uses the vineyard—the vine, the branch, and the husbandman to teach a life changing truth. The Disciples understood full well that there is a season in which the branch does not yield fruit. They understood there is a season when a branch is fruitless. It is important to know that the branch is still connected to the vine and has life in it with the potential of bearing fruit, more fruit, and even much fruit.

What does the husbandman do when the branch is barren and not producing fruit? He “taketh away” by pruning the fruitless branch all the way back to a small branch nub. The branch is still in the vine, but there is only about a quarter inch sticking out. This pruning is necessary for growth and fruit production. This pruning actually prepares the branch for growth and fruit production. The Disciples understood this.

In the same manner this is where growth begins for all true believers who stop bearing genuine Christ-like fruit. Back at the True Vine—Jesus Christ!

Is there anyone else out there on this Forum who would agree that there are times in our Christian life when God has severally, but lovingly, applied the Divine pruning shears and given a good pruning? Are there times in your life when God “takes away” the carnal activity or the sinful disease that prevents you from bearing fruit? “Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby” (Hebrews 12:11).

Is it possible for believers to stop bearing good fruit? That’s really the question. As Christians, are we always in the growth process of yielding fruit? Be honest. We can examine our own life and answer that question. But the scripture gives us an example of a church body that was not continuing to bear good fruit.

1 Corinthians 3:1-4 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Were the carnal church members at Corinth bearing good fruit? I don’t think so. The Apostle Paul said he could not speak to the believers at Corinth as unto spiritual. Does this imply they were not saved?

The Corinthian believers were identified as carnal (or fleshly). In other words, they were governed by mere human nature and not by the Holy Spirit. Their behavior was as if Christ had no part of them. They were seemingly no different than the “natural man” who wanders around aimlessly, in spiritual darkness, without Christ.

They walked as men. They did not walk with the mind of Christ. There was envying, strife, and divisions among them. The members argued with each other. They were not visibly yielding the fruit of love and kindness. Individuals demanded and clung to their own rights. They were jealous of one another. Contentious and divided, they lacked the fruit of a Spirit-filled life; a Christ directed life. Was the Church at Corinth continuing to bear good fruit? Obviously they were not.

Just as the husbandman prunes the vineyard and “takes away” fruitless branches, our Heavenly Father will prune us. God will use severe pruning in our lives in order to produce genuine fruit. His severe pruning can be seen in the strong reproofs of His word, the troublesome times of rigorous trials He orchestrates or allows and, if necessary, the painful times of His loving chastisement. But be assured, God develops a fruitful and productive life by pruning our sinful thoughts, words, or deeds. Severe pruning seems harsh, but to God’s glory, it is absolutely necessary for spiritual growth.

I believe the truths taught in John 15 are promises to all who are in Christ.

[MC1171611]

Originally Posted by Tandi

I must be a very foolish person. I actually believe that ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness (2 Tim. 3:16). I believe The Sermon on the Mount is for me, as well as the Ten Commandments. I believe in "the Everlasting Gospel" of Revelation 14, that I am to fear God, keep His commandments, and have faith in Jesus.

What does it matter if we have the inspired, preserved Word of God if we can essentially negate so much of it as "somebody else's mail" ?? I have never understood this rationale....and you don't have to explain it to me as I have corresponded with a pastor who believes it for several months to no avail.

I realize I am in the minority in my view on this forum and do not wish to get into a debate about it. I just needed to voice my objection based on 2 Tim. 3:16.

Shalom,

Tandi

I said it's all FOR you. I also said it's not all TO you. Follow the instructions in the Old Testament and you'll go right to Hell. My pastor (and myself, incidentally) preaches many, many messages almost solely out of the Old Testament; however, we know that the Bible is more than just "they looked forward to the cross and we look back to the cross."

By the way, AMEN Bro. Forrest.

[Samuel]

That is a good, and patented answer from a Calvinist viewpoint. But there are many who disagree, from complete loss of Salvation, to removing the believers witness. In this case the believer is saved, as a man escaping from a burning building. Naked with no rewards, but saved none the less.

That's why I made my comment, when I saw John 15 being brought up. But on KJV board, most will be Calvinists of a sort, so arguments would be few.

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by Samuel

That's why I made my comment, when I saw John 15 being brought up. But on KJV board, most will be Calvinists of a sort, so arguments would be few.

Most of the participants here that I've seen comment on the subject reject Calvinism. There are quite a few threads on the topic full of arguments.

[MC1171611]

I know of no person here who believes anything even remotely resembling Calvinism. Perhaps a step back to reevaluate before you hit the "Submit Reply" button would be in order?

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by Tandi

I must be a very foolish person. I actually believe that ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness (2 Tim. 3:16). I believe The Sermon on the Mount is for me, as well as the Ten Commandments. I believe in "the Everlasting Gospel" of Revelation 14, that I am to fear God, keep His commandments, and have faith in Jesus.

What does it matter if we have the inspired, preserved Word of God if we can essentially negate so much of it as "somebody else's mail" ?? I have never understood this rationale....and you don't have to explain it to me as I have corresponded with a pastor who believes it for several months to no avail.

I realize I am in the minority in my view on this forum and do not wish to get into a debate about it. I just needed to voice my objection based on 2 Tim. 3:16.

Shalom,

Tandi

Hellow Tandi,

I was like you when I came to fellowship with the brethren here. But I was very much so more resistant than you are in my previous views (I came from a group of Mennonite who are completely ignorant of Dispensationalism and due to their lack of understanding were very vocal against it). What I would like to do is offer you a suggestion that will make things easy for you. I hope you won't do what I did. I tried to bury my head in the sand and wouldn't even read anything on Dispensationalism but eventually I realized I didn't have any room to speak against something unless I'd read at least one book on the subject. Therefore I heeded brother Chette's advice and bought the book "One Book Rightly Divided" by Dr. Douglas D. Stauffer (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0967701619). I can now say that I learned more about the Bible in this one book than I have from any other book on the Scriptures. I assure you that you will be amazed to see things in Scripture that you never were able to piece together before. Here's a couple examples of teachings which various churches believe and are supported by verses in the Bible which are cleared up in his book:

* The NT begins immediately following Malachi (Matthew 1:1)
vs
The NT does not begin until after Christ's death (Hebrews 9:17)

* A person can lose the Holy Spirit through sin (1 Samuel 16:14, Psalm 51:11)
vs
The Holy Spirit seals the Christian and will never leave him (Ephesians 5:30)

* Water baptism bestows the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38)
vs
Baptism identifies Christians with the death, burial and resurrection (Colossians 2:12)

The last example is the real kicker. You will be shewn that Scripture supports many things which cannot be understood unless you rightly divide, such as; do you recieve the Holy Spirit before or after baptism? Do you have to be baptised at all to recieve the Holy Spirit? Do you need to have hands laid upon you to recieve the Holy Ghost? Do you need to be baptised to recieve remission of your sins? Very serious questions, wouldn't you think?

There is so much more to be learned Tandi (like if there is only one gospel, what were the disciples preaching when Christ was still alive?), things you've likely never thought of before, and will surely blow your mind (in a very delightful way ^_^) when brought to your attention. I HIGHLY recommend this book.

Much Love in Christ Jesus,
Stephen

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by MC1171611

I know of no person here who believes anything even remotely resembling Calvinism. Perhaps a step back to reevaluate before you hit the "Submit Reply" button would be in order?

Yeah, no doubt. There are only two folks here that I am aware of that believe in anything resembling reformed theology (so 2 out of 447...).

Oh, and I love sermons preached out of the OT ^_^.

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen