[atlas]

Guys,

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Here is my problem with how some of you understand this verse.

1. God never formed any other person from dirt, not even Eve. She was made from Adam

2. God never breathed any one's nostrils other than Adam's.

3. We are made in Adam's fallen image.

4. All of our attributes came from Adam. Our body, soul and spirit also came from Adam. This is we must be reborn. We are born with Adam's spirit not God's spirit.

5. God did not make us literally, our mom and dad did this.

I think anyone that thinks you must breath open to be alive is 100% incorrect. The Bible dose not teach this.

Babies use oxygen, their mothers oxygen from the mothers blood. I do not see how anyone can believe you must breath open air to be alive. This is just crazy. A person breathing open air did not even make Adam a living soul, nor dose this verse make this claim. I do not see how using oxygen inside or outside of the womb can make you a living soul.

I do not think you can use Adam coming to life and use it to base our coming to life. There are so my differences in how we are made and how Adam was made. God also made the first dog, but he did not make the dog in your back yard.


Atlas

Cody has settled this question for me, at the other forum, by pointing out that fetuses receive oxygen through the umbilical cord. Adam and Eve, however, did not have such a mechanism, so God breathed into their nostrils.

I've had four children, and was present at all of their births; but it wasn't until now that this even occurred to me.

Anyway, unborn babies who die go to Heaven. No problem.

[Biblestudent]

If unborn babies go to heaven, then it implies that they have souls BEFORE birth.

[chette777]

Diligent,

no that is not what I was saying at all. what I meant was that the infant child unborn or stilborn that person never sees a sinful day. sinfulness is something that is llived out in life not in prebirth or death before birth.

now the curse of sin can permeate the very infant person even while being nit together in the womb which explains birthdefects. the the child is unconscience to the facts of it even though they are alive. Conscienceness is where sin nature in a person is and reigns. but the unborn knows none of these things. but they are a person or a life which explains why the death penalty for the mischeif of a child or mother caused by the wickednes of another.

I think the issue of sinful awareness is in conscienceness and unconscienceness. unborn or unconscience to existence and self realization but after their first breath they become self aware.

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by chette777

no that is not what I was saying at all. what I meant was that the infant child unborn or stilborn that person never sees a sinful day. sinfulness is something that is llived out in life not in prebirth or death before birth.

I don't think this is something we really need to debate, but I don't see any Biblical basis for believing that a human being, even just after conception, doesn't have the sin nature they have inherited in Adam's image.

Now God does not have to impute this sin on them and in fact does not until someone is able to be accountable for their sin. This doesn't happen until years after birth. You'll get no argument from me about "where do they go when they die" -- same with people who are mentally incapable of being aware of sin, etc. The following verses teach this: Isaiah 7:16; John 9:41; Deut 1:29; Deut 24:16; others) and David knew his newborn son would be in heaven (2Sam 12:23).

I think the issue of sinful awareness is in conscienceness and unconscienceness. unborn or unconscience to existence and self realization but after their first breath they become self aware.

This is just speculation. I don't know how anyone could know that a newborn is self-aware. I believe the key here is the ability to understand. Nehemiah chapter 8 shows this.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

Some questions for those who see the soul entering the body at birth: (give references if possible)

1 ) When does the spirit get created? If at conception, why?
2 ) If the body is without a soul, is it alive? If no, then when is a baby alive?
3 ) Does the spirit separate from the soul at any point?
4 ) If the pre-born child has no soul, then if death occurs in the womb, does the child cease to exist?

Brother Tim, thank you for the thought provoking questions. I actually spoke with my wife about this subject last night, and when I shared my "current" view (that our babies had a "spirit" and "body" at conception, and the "soul" came with the first breath), she lovingly but passionately disagreed with me. The more we discussed and the more she reasoned with me from a mother's perspective, to be completely honest, the more I thought how "crazy" it was for me to think that our children were not formed in the womb with a spirit, soul, and body--as complete human beings.

So in the middle of a thread, I am now persuaded that at conception our children had a spirit, soul, and body. They were miraculously formed through the amazing design and plan of God. (We have a child who was born at 25 weeks and weighed 1 pound and 8 ounces and was only 11 inches long at birth. She is a miracle! Sarah Beth is now 12 years old and a delight to our family.) Did she have a soul in the womb? I would have to say absolutely.

I cannot give a lot of scriptural evidence other than using the same verse in Genesis 2 that I have already referenced. But I'm seeing it differently. Gen 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground [man's body], and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life [man's spirit]; and man became a living soul [man's soul]."

As it has been pointed out by others, our entrance into this life is certainly not like Adam's. That's obvious. So we cannot make an exact comparison. But I now believe that the "pattern" and "design" was established with the first man, Adam. That is to say, this miracle of conception includes a spirit, soul, and body. Adam became a living soul when his spirit and body were united. A child in the womb is a living "soul" because a child in the womb has a "body" and a "spirit." To me, it stands to reason that if you have a spirit and a body, then you have a soul. That is my simple explanation and understanding.

We've been blessed with four wonderful children who are serving the Lord. As I mentioned on a prayer request thread, we have also lost four children due to miscarriages. One in the first trimester and three in the second trimester. Although it was very difficult, we are comforted in knowing God is sovereign and that He knew our children in the womb! He makes no mistake.

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Diligent

I don't think this is something we really need to debate, but I don't see any Biblical basis for believing that a human being, even just after conception, doesn't have the sin nature they have inherited in Adam's image.

Now God does not have to impute this sin on them and in fact does not until someone is able to be accountable for their sin. This doesn't happen until years after birth. You'll get no argument from me about "where do they go when they die" -- same with people who are mentally incapable of being aware of sin, etc. The following verses teach this: Isaiah 7:16; John 9:41; Deut 1:29; Deut 24:16; others) and David knew his newborn son would be in heaven (2Sam 12:23).

This is just speculation. I don't know how anyone could know that a newborn is self-aware. I believe the key here is the ability to understand. Nehemiah chapter 8 shows this.

I agree with you. This is a very complex subject and I can see how this thread could easily take off on sin nature. I just want to offer some scripture regarding "sin nature."

“Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one” (Job 14:4).

“What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous” (Job 15:14)?

The difference between Adam and his first born? Parents who were sinners. That is why we must be born again of incorruptible seed.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

[peopleoftheway]

Ecclesiastes 11:5
As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by peopleoftheway

Ecclesiastes 11:5
As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.

Welcome back, Laddy. I've missed your participation. That pretty much sums it up, doesn't it?

So what do you know about the subject of the thread?

[peopleoftheway]

Hey Brother, I am at my Mothers but I shall be brief in my answer. I have no net at home now so I get on occasionally when Im over here.

I have no doubt nor question in my mind that at "conception" in the womb is when life begins

Ruth 4:13 So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the LORD gave her conception, and she bare a son.

The lord gave her conception, he gave her life inside her.

Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

The Psalmist speaks of his very "being" being possesed by God from the womb

Psalms 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

John the Baptist was known from the womb, he was the spirit of Elijah

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Samson was a nazarite unto God from the womb.

Judges 16:17 That he told her all his heart, and said unto her, There hath not come a rasor upon mine head; for I have been a Nazarite unto God from my mother's womb: if I be shaven, then my strength will go from me, and I shall become weak, and be like any other man.

Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

All through scripture, even the apostles class a "babe" as a new creature in Christ, the above portion of scripture leaves no doubt in my mind that from the moment of conception, the babe is a living soul.

I am sorry that you and your wife lost Children in the womb Brother, and also to those many others who have suffered similar, and may I say to anyone that wants to argue that your Children are not in heaven with our Lord as angels may I say
God Forgive you.