[peopleoftheway]

Ephesians 4:29
Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Originally Posted by adelphos

Perhaps you can explain your above "opinion"/"pronouncement" in light of the following scriptures.

Matthew 19

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Mark 10

24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

These are the same exact instances. Not only is "heaven" interchangeable with "God" but entrance into the kingdom of heaven is equated with "eternal life".

Why a King James Bible believer would ever use such an argument is beyond me.
Adelphos is basically saying that either Matthew or Mark DID NOT record Jesus' words correctly!

According to adelphos, Jesus either said "Kingdom of God" or "Kingdom of heaven" in the first phrase of His dialogue, but he couldn't have said BOTH.

Is MATTHEW wrong and Jesus NEVER SAID "kingdom of heaven" in that dialogue?

Or are MARK and LUKE wrong for putting "kingdom of God" in place
of "kingdom of heaven?"

The gospel writers often emphasize different parts of Jesus' words to bring out the theme of their particular gospel.

Matthew's emphasis was on the physical so he brought out the part about the kingdom of heaven.
The other gospel writers did not.
But it is for CERTAIN that they CORRECTLY recorded Jesus' words.
They were not "interchanging" phrases as adelphos so carelessely asserts!

We find a very similar situation with the sign above Jesus' head at
the crucifixion --

In MATTHEW, the sign over the cross says -
"THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS."

In MARK, the sign over the cross says -
"THE KING OF THE JEWS."

In LUKE, the sign over the cross says -
"THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS."

In JOHN, the sign over the cross says -
"JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS."

I guess adolphos thinks that "Jesus" is interchangeable with "Nazareth" and that "Nazareth" is interchangeable with "King of the Jews!"

Of course, what was written makes complete sense when you DON'T
change what your King James Bible says and simply understand that
each Gospel was showing different aspects of the crucifixion.

Did Jesus use the phrase "kingdom of heaven" in his dialogue on the
rich or didn't he?

Is Matthew lying or are Mark and Luke lying?

Failure to recognize the differences between the two kingdoms is a failure to understand the complete scope of the Scripture and a lack of understanding as to the MAIN THEME of Scripture is.

I wonder if adelphos would care to tell us what the main theme of the Bible is.

Redemption perhaps?
The blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ?
"love your neighbor as you love yourself?"

[peopleoftheway]

Originally Posted by adelphos

This is the kind of childish foolishness that I can do without. Of course, I understand that "God" and "heaven" are not the same. I have never stated that they were nor have I ever implied such a childish notion. For you to carry on is such a manner indicates that you imagine that you DO "have a complete handle on this issue". I find your "humility" in your previous post to be nothing but a fake humility. You in fact DO believe that you "have a complete handle on this issue" or you wouldn't have bothered making your latest post -- both attacking me and adamantly proclaiming that "there is one thing that I do know and that is - neither do you". Tell me, George, if you truly don't "have a handle on this issue" how can you so adamantly "pronounce (with finality)" that I'm wrong? If you don't "have a handle" how do you know that it isn't YOU that is wrong? You should be more careful, George, your true colors are showing!

Delivered with plenty of gall and bitterness, congratulations.

[pbiwolski]

Originally Posted by adelphos

There is one thing that I do know and that is that the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven are used interchangeable in the Bible.

An old preacher once said, "Every heresy today contains an element of truth."

The issue is not that the terms (actually the kingdoms) are used interchangeably in some cases (NOT ALL CASES), for indeed they are, and you have shown this to be the case with scripture. Very good.

Your trouble is that you fail to notice when and why they are sometimes interchangeable, and then when and why they are not.

Your view is the "lazy man's view" of the issue. It was you that said "A little study goes a long way." What about a lot of study? The latter would take you deeper into the Book than the argument you and others muster from the surface of "interchangeable means equality."

Your element of truth only confuses you into spreading heresy.

Adelphos is basically saying that either Matthew or Mark DID NOT record Jesus' words correctly!

Please cite where I ever said that. You can't because I have never stated that nor is that what I believe.

I believe Matt. and Mark got it exactly right....just as the Holy Ghost inspired them. It is those that seek to make two kingdoms that have problems with the actual TEXT. If Jesus was indeed talking about TWO separate kingdoms then neither Matt. nor Mark had right to change or alter what he said as this would change the entire meaning of the passages. However, when you understand that they are one in the same then the Holy Ghost can inspire either term; e.g. kingdom of God or kingdom of heaven. It isn't so with your belief. According to you one or the other tampered with Jesus' words and made him say something that he never said.

According to adelphos, Jesus either said "Kingdom of God" or "Kingdom of heaven" in the first phrase of His dialogue, but he couldn't have said BOTH.

Are you doubting the words of the King James Bible? The Bible is clear in its presentation of what Jesus actually said.

Either way your theology is shot down by this one passage. Let’s suppose that you are right and Jesus “said BOTH”. You still cannot prove your two kingdom theology even if he “said BOTH” (which he didn’t!). In fact, if you are right then it proves that your two kingdom theory is incorrect and you have failed to “rightly divide the word of truth”. Here’s why: The question was asked of Jesus, “Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?” In the end Jesus pronounces,

23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Here we see that Jesus clearly and without question equates “eternal life” with entering “the kingdom of heaven”. So, if Jesus did in fact say “BOTH”, as you state, then it even further destroys your two kingdom theory.

We find a similar instance below.

Luke 7:27 This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

Matt. 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Herami, are these the same instances? According to your belief the KJB is wrong in one of these instances. It is impossible to reconcile many like scriptures when you seek to force a meaning upon scripture that isn't there; i.e. two kingdom theology. When you "rightly divide the word of truth" it is easy to reconcile these passages. Since they are interchangeable the Holy Ghost may inspire either term. However, with your theology the meaning of the passages are completely different and it makes Jesus say something completely opposite or something that he never said to start with.

Is MATTHEW wrong and Jesus NEVER SAID "kingdom of heaven" in that dialogue?

Or are MARK and LUKE wrong for putting "kingdom of God" in place
of "kingdom of heaven?"

These are questions that YOU should be answering. It is YOUR view that makes the kingdoms completely different. The Holy Ghost could inspire either term and be 100% correct when you "rightly divide the word of truth". It is when you try to foist a particular meaning upon scripture that you have the questions like you posted above. When you look at it with your view then one or the other HAS to be wrong -- because by changing the words the entire meaning is changed (according to your view). I have no problem with the HG inspiring either passage; however, your view has a huge problem!

The gospel writers often emphasize different parts of Jesus' words to bring out the theme of their particular gospel.

Mark 1: 14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Matt. 4: 17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Did Jesus preach two different gospels? Additionally, did Jesus instruct his disciples to preach a different gospel than the one he was preaching?

Matt. 10: 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Or is it that he instructed his disciples to preach two different “gospels”? –

Luke 10: 8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

Another BIG problem you have in your two kingdom theology is this:

Luke 16: 16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Wait! I thought we just read above that—

Matt. 4: 17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

And additionally,

Matt. 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Are you saying that Jesus was completely confused? By your two kingdom theory you make Jesus out to be a liar! On the other hand, when you “rightly divide the word of truth” these scriptures are perfectly understandable.

Herami, could you also tell us what “the gospel of the kingdom” is?

Matthew's emphasis was on the physical so he brought out the part about the kingdom of heaven.
The other gospel writers did not.

This sounds a lot like what I hear from the MV crowd. When clear differences are pointed out to them they typically say something exactly like what you just stated above. I’m actually surprised to see you using this ‘argument’ to defend your two kingdom theology.

Tell us, Herami, who wrote the Bible? Was it Matthew deciding what to put “emphasis” on? Did the “gospel writers” write the Bible?

You undoubtedly are having to resort to this tactic because the clear w-o-r-d-s of the Bible do not support your theory. It is written by the HG that Jesus said, “kingdom of heaven” and “kingdom of God” in the parallel passages. When you “rightly divide the word of truth” no problem exists and we don’t have to stoop to the “Matthew’s emphasis” explanation.

I will invite you to go back to the top and read because no matter what you believe about the actual text it still destroys your theory. Whether you read “kingdom of heaven” (Matt.) or “kingdom of God” (Mark/Luke) Jesus was talking about “eternal life” so your theory is shot. We don’t even need to look at Mark or Luke. The passage in Matt. alone proves your theory of two separate kingdoms false. Jesus equates “eternal life” to both the “kingdom of heaven” AND the “kingdom of God”.

We find a very similar situation with the sign above Jesus' head at
the crucifixion –

I beg to differ! The question about the superscription is altogether a different matter. The superscription (no matter which gospel you look at) doesn’t carry a completely different meaning. What you are asserting is that “kingdom of heaven” means something entirely different than “kingdom of God”. The superscription is the superscription no matter which place you look at it. However, when we compare verses regarding your two kingdom theory we see that complete meanings have been changed (according to you).

I’ll be happy to discuss the superscription with you but for now I’ll let this suffice.

Did Jesus use the phrase "kingdom of heaven" in his dialogue on the
rich or didn't he?

Is Matthew lying or are Mark and Luke lying?

You are tying so hard to make your theory work that you are making yourself look bad. If you would simply take George’s advice and “rightly divide the word of truth” you wouldn’t have such problems. This is a bit of a straw-man argument.

Only when one approaches the Biblical text with the two kingdom theory in mind does one have to stoop to asking, “Is Matthew lying or are mark and Luke lying?” Only if your theory is correct does your question have any validity. When you understand that the HG could’ve inspired either word and stayed 100% true to what Jesus was saying then you see that no one was “lying”. Whether the text reads “kingdom of heaven” or “kingdom of God” doesn’t change the meaning. The text of Matthew proves this point (where Jesus himself interchanges the terms). It is when your two kingdom theory is forced upon the text do we have to answer for who’s “lying”.

So, you tell me, Herami, who is “lying”?

While you are explaining that perhaps you will also explain the following scriptures to us.

Mark 4:30 And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it?
31 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:
32 But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.

Matt. 13: 31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

In addition to all the scriptures that I’ve offered I am hoping that either you or George will answer the following questions.

1) In John 3:27 we read the following words, “John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.”

Since George in his long list of “prouncements”/”opinions” has adamantly stated that God and heaven are “NOT THE SAME” I was wondering if you would explain what John meant when he said, “A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven”? Can “heaven” give unto men?

2) Does the following scripture agree with your two kingdom theology?

2 Tim. 4: 18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

What is Paul saying here by, “will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom”?

3) Col. 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

2 Peter 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Are these two different “kingdoms”? Or is this one in the same “kingdom”? And if so, is this a THIRD “kingdom” in addition to your other two “kingdoms”? Surely you don’t want us to believe that “God” is “heaven” and/or “God” is “our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” or that “heaven” is “his dear Son”. So, which is it?

Maybe George will post for us all a nice list of how “God”, “heaven”, and “our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” are “different”. Could you do that George?

I have MUCH more to say on this matter but this should keep you busy enough. We have yet to touch on the “Lord’s Prayer”! Or Matthew chapter 13! (oh, that’s a good one)

I was thinking about what George said in his post today.

When the truth of the matter is that this issue is one the most misunderstood issues in the entire Bible (an issue which the vast majority of Christians are totally unaware of) demonstrates to me that you are either ignorant of the complexity of the issue or are incredibly arrogant in thinking that you (or David Reagan) possess the only correct "interpretation" when there are plenty of sincere Bible believing Christians that differ with you - and for many good Scriptural reasons.

He went on to say

You are entitled to your "opinion", but your "pronouncements" are not necessarily sound doctrine

I wonder if George would pronounce the following men "incredibly arrogant" as well. Consider the following --

Darby "pronounced", "This expression is found only in Matthew, as specially occupied with dispensations, and the dealings of God with the Jews. “The kingdom of God” is the generic term. “The kingdom of heaven” is the kingdom of God,"

John Wesley "pronounced", "The kingdom of heaven, and the kingdom of God, are but two phrases for the same thing."

John Calvin "pronounced", "In a word, the kingdom of heaven is nothing else than “newness of life,” (Romans 6:4,) by which God restores us to the hope of a blessed immortality."

Spurgeon merely passes by this ‘great’ doctrine that you proclaim is essential to “rightly dividing the word of truth”. Spurgeon routinely interchanges the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God in his commentary.

Barnes "pronounced", "The phrases kingdom of heaven, kingdom of Christ, kingdom of God, are of frequent occurrence in the Bible. They all refer to the same thing. "

Godbey "pronounces", "Of course, the kingdom of heaven (Matthew all the time says, “Kingdom of heaven,” and Mark, “Kingdom of God,” they being precisely synonymous) is at hand in very truth, because the King is here, and of course having the kingdom with Him; as a kingdom means a government.

Are all these men "incredibly arrogant" to state what they have stated?

Not ONE of the Early Church Fathers makes mention of your two kingdom doctrine (that I have found). In fact, Chrysostom, in his large commentary on Matthew, doesn't even hint at your two kingdom theory. Instead Chrysostom regularly interchanges the words "God" and "heaven" when speaking about "the kingdom". Chrysostom even quotes Matt. 6:33 as "“Seek ye the kingdom of Heaven, and all these things shall be added unto
you.” on several occasions.

Originally Posted by pbiwolski

Your element of truth only confuses you into spreading heresy.

Just curious: What "heresy" is it that I'm "spreading"?

adelphos - I don't think it matters what you post...

Once they label you, they label you. Anything you say will be considered a heresy or with evil intentions. They will flame you and then call you a troll.

I have not read this whole thread nor will I.

If you do not agree with them then you are wrong. And as soon as you learn that the happier you will be.

God Bless! If you would like sensible, reasoned CHRISTIAN conversation let me know...

Thanks...

Originally Posted by adelphos

I was thinking about what George said in his post today.


He went on to say



I wonder if George would pronounce the following men "incredibly arrogant" as well. Consider the following --

Darby "pronounced", "This expression is found only in Matthew, as specially occupied with dispensations, and the dealings of God with the Jews. “The kingdom of God” is the generic term. “The kingdom of heaven” is the kingdom of God,"

John Wesley "pronounced", "The kingdom of heaven, and the kingdom of God, are but two phrases for the same thing."

John Calvin "pronounced", "In a word, the kingdom of heaven is nothing else than “newness of life,” (Romans 6:4,) by which God restores us to the hope of a blessed immortality."

Spurgeon merely passes by this ‘great’ doctrine that you proclaim is essential to “rightly dividing the word of truth”. Spurgeon routinely interchanges the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God in his commentary.

Barnes "pronounced", "The phrases kingdom of heaven, kingdom of Christ, kingdom of God, are of frequent occurrence in the Bible. They all refer to the same thing. "

Godbey "pronounces", "Of course, the kingdom of heaven (Matthew all the time says, “Kingdom of heaven,” and Mark, “Kingdom of God,” they being precisely synonymous) is at hand in very truth, because the King is here, and of course having the kingdom with Him; as a kingdom means a government.

Are all these men "incredibly arrogant" to state what they have stated?

Not ONE of the Early Church Fathers makes mention of your two kingdom doctrine (that I have found). In fact, Chrysostom, in his large commentary on Matthew, doesn't even hint at your two kingdom theory. Instead Chrysostom regularly interchanges the words "God" and "heaven" when speaking about "the kingdom". Chrysostom even quotes Matt. 6:33 as "“Seek ye the kingdom of Heaven, and all these things shall be added unto
you.” on several occasions.

By the way... The people on this board HATE these guys you quoted... Their only authority is THEIR interpretation of the Bible. Everyone else is a heretic and must suffer the wrath of Almighty Atlas...