[Brother Tim]

My first thoughts about the phrase is that the false Christs would begin showing up soon after His ascension. They then have continued to show up throughout history.

P.S. I am pre-mil but not pre-trib. I don't quite know what box I would best fit in. Probably not any right now. I see many things attributed to the "great" tribulation that were fulfilled in history, such as a number of statements made in Matt 24 happening in 70 A.D. But there are missing pieces that I have not settled. I spend most of my energy on the text issue, so I'll leave the future up to those who are smart enough to figure it all out. God is sovereign and my lack of knowledge about the future is not going to affect its outcome. I'm just letting you know a little about where I am in this.

The primary events of Matthew 24 have not happened yet. The first part of the passage describe general events - of which there certainly have been applications during the church age (plagues, earthquakes, wars, etc.) - though I believe the context is events within that seven year period. If you compare Matthew 24 with Luke 21, you will see that Luke actually describes what would happen during the destruction of Jerusalem, with the prophecy that the nation of Israel would be scattered throughout the world; however, Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are different in what they cover (what happened in 70 AD is similar in some ways to what will happen during the Tribulation, but those chapters describe what will happen during the reign and destruction under the Antichrist).

For example:

70 AD - Luke 21:5-7 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Luke 21:12 But before all these (describing the other events at the end of the church age), they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Luke 21:20-24 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The Tribulation - Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

From the contexts of these chapters, it is obvious Luke 21 deals with the first question which was fulfilled in AD 70, and Mark 13 and Matthew 24 deal with the other two.

Matthew 24:15-22 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

This is describing events that will only ever happen ONCE to the world - the great tribulation, and this passage indicates it will be Christ's return that will end this time of persecution and destruction. THAT hasn't happened yet - though Luke 21 has (ie. the dispersal of the Jews throughout the world and the time of the Gentiles, which we are still in).

Jerry:

Apparently we agree that Luke 21 happened near to AD70. Those were the days of vengeance. So, now, how would you interpret thise part of Luke 21:22: "For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled?"

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

All the things that Jesus prophesied about the nation of Israel rejecting Him and having their city and temple destroyed by the Romans was fulfilled. Taken in context, Jesus certainly isn't everything ever prophesied about Israel is fulfilled.

These are certainly some of the prophecies:

Luke 19:41-44 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Matthew 23:34-39 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Daniel 9:24-27 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The underlined part has already happened - the rest has not yet occurred.

Jerry:

I think there might be a typo here. I'm not able to figure out what you are saying.

All the things that Jesus prophesied about the nation of Israel rejecting Him and having their city and temple destroyed by the Romans was fulfilled. Taken in context, Jesus certainly isn't everything ever prophesied about Israel is fulfilled.

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

Just before the AD70 judgment(the Great Tribulation) began, the first tribulation ended. That first tribulation was the "Baptism of Fire," the time of testing of His followers, to see who would fall away from faith in Him, and revert back to their old ways, usually back to the sacrificial system. Those who didn't fall away, who endured to the end, were saved. Sorry to disappoint dispensationalists, but the Jews (and possibly some Gentiles) were raptured at that time. Those who were alive did not precede the ones who were dead. They all went up to meet the Lord in the air, to be ever with Him. Paul was one of those who were raptured. Also, at about that time, Daniel was fulfilled, and athe Old Testament Jews were taken to heaven. At the present time, and throughout the Church Age - the "Millennium" - the twelve Apostles are ruling the twelve tribes of Israel in heaven, in the New Jerusalem. The wicked, and the unbelieving Jews who rejected Christ ended up in the Roman holocaust, or were shipped off as captives to other nations.
Romans 11:32 tells us that all Israelites had been concluded in unbelief, the same as Gentiles so, technically and spiritually speaking, there are no "Jews" today. There are Semites, descendants of Israelites, but "Jew" is a religious designation, and God did away with that prior to AD70. We Christians should be very careful about encouraging "pseudo-Jews" to persist in their folly, rather than teaching them the truth of the Bible.

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

Taken in context, Jesus certainly isn't everything ever prophesied about Israel is fulfilled.

Sorry, I missed a word: saying.

Taken in context, Jesus certainly isn't saying everything ever prophesied about Israel is fulfilled.

Taken in context, Jesus certainly isn't saying everything ever prophesied about Israel is fulfilled.

How do you figure that, Jerry?

cpmac

There are many prophecies about Christ's second coming - and some of them deal with Israel and Jerusalem; therefore they certainly are not all fulfilled yet. Though everything Jesus prophesied would happen to that generation of people that rejected Him has happened.

Jerry:
The Great Tribulation was prophesied by Jesus in Matthew 24. But many say that it is yet future. To which generation was that supposed to happen? What do you say?

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com