Something that has greatly stumbled me when I was at this local baptist church where the pastor was a follower of Calvin, is this: Surely, this pastor must have known what kind of person Calvin was. Besise being of a great intellect and having written many so-called wonderful works, and beside having become extremely powerful in Geneva, Calvin also used this power to persecute many people who dared disagree with him. From what I read, Calvin was a cruel man and did not have the fruits ofthe Spirit in his life. Jesus said: "By their fruit you will know them".
Predestination is a word and a subject that is in God's Word, but why would anyone insist on studying this subject from such a man as Calvin who, amongst many of his false doctrines, insisted, even after his so-called conversion, that salvation came through baptism into "the church". WHich church might that be??? His, of course. Certainly not the Anabaptists' church. These were such simple people that, most likely, they were gathering in their own homes, and did not have official "church buildings". Liz

"To make ALL MEN see" (KJB)
"That ALL should come to repentance" -- God is not willing that any should perish (KJB)

2PET.3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This is written to the elect , the usward in this verse is refering to chapter 1 verse 1 , like precious faith.

the [ that all should come to repentance ] is the elect also, the like precious faith.
jim

Who is the elect of Romans 9? Jesus, angels, Jacob or Israel, Gentiles, the world, or the Church?

Rom.9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen [ jews ] according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel [ children of the promise ] , which are of Israel [ the nation of israel ]:

verse 7 explains this just because they are abrahams seed or jews they aren't children ,[its not because of their lineage ]
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed

[chette777]

grace

I am not Calvinist and I believe you are saved by faith alone. after the cross God has placed all people in unbelief rom. 11:32.

the only sinyu can go to hell for in unbelief. John 3:16 In the Gospel of Grace it says whosoever believeth. also it says in John he that believeth has everlasting life he who believeth not is condenmed already. all of us were condemned in unbelief before we believed.

Read the Book Grace By Lewis Sperry Chafer. is in not a Calvinist either. as I said they Calvinism and Arminianism Are two extreme theologies invented by men. better off reading your KJV.

No man need will go to hell because of the sins of Adultery, murder, lying, cheating, fornication, covetousness etc... because Jesus Christ was teh Propitiation for all the worlds sin. the only sin the condemns one to hell is unbelief.

[chette777]

hey Guys romans is the complete doctrine of God Grace. the term elect is not mentioned in chapter nine. the only time it is used it is in Chapter eight and it include Believing Jews and Gentiles. for they are the one to be conformed to the image of Christ.

that is not for the previous dispensation or the ones to come

We were chosen IN HIM (Eph 1:4) that is Gods foreknowledge at work he chose those he Knew would beleive to Verses 5-13

chette 777
also it says in John he that believeth has everlasting life he who believeth not is condenmed already

this verse : Jn.3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
just states the fact that if he is believing present tense , he's not condemned.

the only sin the condemns one to hell is unbelief
so i take it that you believe babies and people that can't believe are going to hell .

1 Tim.1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Paul was saved in his unbelief. through God's mercy.

Rom.3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

We were chosen IN HIM (Eph 1:4) that is Gods foreknowledge at work he chose those he Knew would beleive to Verses 5-13

in order to come to this conclusion you have to add words to the Word of God , God's Word is not of private interpretation , it says foreknowledge it doesn't say of what , this isn't a proof text it just states foreknowledge ,
let's look at some scriptures that mention foreknowledge.

Acts 2::22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

1 Pet.1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

both of these accounts talk about foreknowing the person not what he does , don't get me wrong i believe God is all knowing , but if we have to add words to God's Word then it becomes private interpretation.

[ hey Guys romans is the complete doctrine of God Grace. the term elect is not mentioned in chapter nine. ]
Rom.9:11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Romans is not the complete doctrine of God's grace , all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine ,reproof , instruction in righteousness.

It's obvious the new birth has to occur before we can believe , because faith is a fruit of the Spirit.
...The new birth has to come before we believe.

Nothing like contradicting the Bible! If your foundation is off, the rest of your structure will be as well.

The Bible teaches faith comes first, then regeneration:

John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

That passage says when we receive Christ we are born again.

1 Peter 1:23-25 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Being born again through the Word of God (ie. the Gospel) - that makes our new birth dependent upon our belief in the Saviour.

Originally Posted by chette777

the only sin the condemns one to hell is unbelief.

No, that is not completely true. All our sins condemn us to Hell - unbelief is what sends us there.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This includes the second death.

Ephesians 5:5-6 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Originally Posted by jerry

Nothing like contradicting the Bible! If your foundation is off, the rest of your structure will be as well.

The Bible teaches faith comes first, then regeneration:

John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

That passage says when we receive Christ we are born again.

1 Peter 1:23-25 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Being born again through the Word of God (ie. the Gospel) - that makes our new birth dependent upon our belief in the Saviour.

Jerry on the passage in JN.1 :12 this verse just states if we believe we are born of God , not a way to get born , in the following verse this is cleared up , its not our will,Jn. 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
to answer your second scripture turn to ;
Jn.1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
This is Jesus Christ you can see this by verse 14 and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, the greek word for Word is Logos, now we will go to your second passage 1 Pet.1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, [ the word of God spoken of here is the same greek word logos Jesus Christ ] which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
in verse 25 we start out with the word but contrasting to what had just been spoken and the greek word for word in this verse is rhema and we can plainly see by the verse that this is talking about the written Word.
Paul on the damascus road is an example how his belief didn't cause him to get saved for he was persecuting Christians , he did it in unbelief , he didn't believe till God by his will saved him.
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
i hope that answers some of your questions
jim