[MC1171611]

Wonderboy shows up and immediately starts calling people names. Typical.

I'm not usually one for banning people, but he seems to be in the top 10% of idiots, so I'd vote to give him the boot. He obviously isn't here to discuss anything or to provide Biblical edification. He just wants to scream and shout and pound his widdle fists on the ground.

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by truewars

You harlots

Well, that's enough of that. Take your false gospel elsewhere.

[stephanos]

Wow I haven't seen that since I've been here. I bet he's really battling sin in his own life. I know I tend to get very grouchy and defensive when I'm warring against the flesh myself. It's too bad this guy hasn't learned to extend mercy and forgiveness towards others (especially we who believe in the gospel of God's Grace) in the like manner that Christ did towards him.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Paul has been an interesting subject in my fellowship, we have a few people who you could say are borderline obsessed with his sermons. But take a look at this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERIXg...eature=related
From what I understand from what Paul is saying is that works come out of a true salvation. That your works are your evidence of your true conversion.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

Just my 2 cents.

[Luke]

But that's not what the Bible says. Firstly James is an epistle to the jews, and is also talking about justification BEFORE men.

The only evidence in Heaven that God looks upon is "do you believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God". The only evidence that God cares about is the belief in your heart, and whether that is real or not.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.

Men have got to stop looking to themselves for assurance. If they look inside and see that they do trust Jesus Christ, let them depart from iniquity because of their love for Jesus, and because they have been saved (not being saved - it ain't no process).

Originally Posted by Luke

But that's not what the Bible says. Firstly James is an epistle to the jews, and is also talking about justification BEFORE men.

The only evidence in Heaven that God looks upon is "do you believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God". The only evidence that God cares about is the belief in your heart, and whether that is real or not.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.

Men have got to stop looking to themselves for assurance. If they look inside and see that they do trust Jesus Christ, let them depart from iniquity because of their love for Jesus, and because they have been saved (not being saved - it ain't no process).

Brother Luke, first let me state that I agree with you on this. Salvation comes through faith alone in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Savior.

I guess I didnt word what I meant the best, what im saying is not a way to assure yourself, Im saying if your truly saved and have given your life over to Jesus in submission than your fruit will show it (works). This is not for the assurance of yourself but for others. I believe in my heart that Jesus is Lord, and He died for my sins, I KNOW I am saved because of the blood of Jesus that was shed for me. But at the same time I am not omniscience, I do not know if someone truly believes what they say they believe, the only way I can tell this is through their fruit, when I think of my fellow brethren in this aspect I often ask myself, are they moving closer to God? Are they trying to remove sin from their life and witness and do the Lord's work in whatever way they can. You mentioned that that was directed towards the Jews, but if you were a true believer of Christ for the past 20 years of your life and your works did not show any movement towards God, well I would have a hard time believing you were a true believer.

Ive actually never listened to the shocking message or whatever it is of paul's, but I have listened to quite a few and I believe he does know have a correct view of salvation, my only problem is that he focuses so much on repentance because it is one of the bigger things lacking in the church (carnal Christians and all that stuff) and how you need to turn from sin that it overwhelms the faith aspect of it.

But I'm open to other opinions I was just trying to clarify my position.

[Luke]

Oh okay Thanks for clarifying

As for Mr Washer's view of Salvation, I would be wary about agreeing with him. While he claims it is by grace through faith, he is extremely reformed in doctrine.

He believes God regenerates a man before that man has faith in God (effectively saving the man before he even believes on Christ). A woman comes to him asking how to be saved and he tells her to beg God for salvation, and don't stop begging God until he gives it to her, and she can either beg until God saves her, or she can give up and go to hell. Similarly another man asks him how to be saved but says he believes the gospel and understands it but doesn't feel anything change in him, and he says the same thing to that man.

His view is very skewed - it seems to me that he fears for his own salvation, or that he believes God doesn't really want to save anyone, and needs convincing before He will.

[JMWHALEN]

Originally Posted by tkg

Brother Luke, first let me state that I agree with you on this. Salvation comes through faith alone in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Savior.

I guess I didnt word what I meant the best, what im saying is not a way to assure yourself, Im saying if your truly saved and have given your life over to Jesus in submission than your fruit will show it (works). This is not for the assurance of yourself but for others. I believe in my heart that Jesus is Lord, and He died for my sins, I KNOW I am saved because of the blood of Jesus that was shed for me. But at the same time I am not omniscience, I do not know if someone truly believes what they say they believe, the only way I can tell this is through their fruit, when I think of my fellow brethren in this aspect I often ask myself, are they moving closer to God? Are they trying to remove sin from their life and witness and do the Lord's work in whatever way they can. You mentioned that that was directed towards the Jews, but if you were a true believer of Christ for the past 20 years of your life and your works did not show any movement towards God, well I would have a hard time believing you were a true believer.

Ive actually never listened to the shocking message or whatever it is of paul's, but I have listened to quite a few and I believe he does know have a correct view of salvation, my only problem is that he focuses so much on repentance because it is one of the bigger things lacking in the church (carnal Christians and all that stuff) and how you need to turn from sin that it overwhelms the faith aspect of it.

But I'm open to other opinions I was just trying to clarify my position.

______

"Im saying if your truly saved and have given your life over to Jesus in submission than your fruit will show it (works)."

"truly saved"

Is that similar to "truly pregnant, truly dead, truly alive, truly white, truly black, truly sweet, truly bitter........?

Justification has nothing to do with you giving the LORD God anything, especially the life of a no-good, rotten, filthy sinner. The Lord Jesus Christ gave His life in your place at Calvary, and your no-good, rotten, filthy life is replaced with the resurrected life of the Lord Jesus Christ. You confuse justification with service/sanctification/"walk."

"the only way I can tell this is through their fruit."

How much "fruit?" You do not comprehend the gravity of sin. Sin is not just "wrong doing", it is "wrong being." Tell us how much "fruit" is required. And, while you are at it, if this is your(not my) "argument", tell us that you have met the requirement of "fruit." And what relevance is it, even if your "argument" is correct(and it is not), that "you can tell?"

"..are they moving closer to God? Are they trying to remove sin from their life and witness and do the Lord's work in whatever way they can."

This is sanctification, not justification.

"trying"

How much "trying"?


"but if you were a true believer of Christ for the past 20 years of your life and your works did not show any movement towards God, well I would have a hard time believing you were a true believer."


How many works would you say "qualified" that you "showed any movement towards God"? You have the wrong conception of sin. Those poor Corinthians, who are referred to as "saints." The Galatians would love this sermon.

And what distinguishes a "true" believer from a "not true" believer? Tell all of us what a "true believer" is, with specifics.


"repentance because it is one of the bigger things lacking in the church (carnal Christians and all that stuff) and how you need to turn from sin that it overwhelms the faith aspect of it. "

"turn from sin" is sanctification/service/"walk", not justification. The LORD God repented.

Sounds like a "Lordship Salvation" proponent here-a perversion of the gospel of Christ-Gal. 1)


In Christ,

John M. Whalen

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by truewars

Start crying "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?".

I have discovered THE answer, and I hope you can.

Romans 7:24-25 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Your flesh will never be good. Stop trying to sanctify it.

YOU REMIND ME OF SOME OTHERS I'VE READ ABOUT...

Matthew 23:24-28 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Amazing grace...how sweet the sound!

Originally Posted by JMWHALEN

______

"Im saying if your truly saved and have given your life over to Jesus in submission than your fruit will show it (works)."

"truly saved"

Is that similar to "truly pregnant, truly dead, truly alive, truly white, truly black, truly sweet, truly bitter........?

Justification has nothing to do with you giving the LORD God anything, especially the life of a no-good, rotten, filthy sinner. The Lord Jesus Christ gave His life in your place at Calvary, and your no-good, rotten, filthy life is replaced with the resurrected life of the Lord Jesus Christ. You confuse justification with service/sanctification/"walk."

"the only way I can tell this is through their fruit."

How much "fruit?" You do not comprehend the gravity of sin. Sin is not just "wrong doing", it is "wrong being." Tell us how much "fruit" is required. And, while you are at it, if this is your(not my) "argument", tell us that you have met the requirement of "fruit." And what relevance is it, even if your "argument" is correct(and it is not), that "you can tell?"

"..are they moving closer to God? Are they trying to remove sin from their life and witness and do the Lord's work in whatever way they can."

This is sanctification, not justification.

"trying"

How much "trying"?


"but if you were a true believer of Christ for the past 20 years of your life and your works did not show any movement towards God, well I would have a hard time believing you were a true believer."


How many works would you say "qualified" that you "showed any movement towards God"? You have the wrong conception of sin. Those poor Corinthians, who are referred to as "saints." The Galatians would love this sermon.

And what distinguishes a "true" believer from a "not true" believer? Tell all of us what a "true believer" is, with specifics.


"repentance because it is one of the bigger things lacking in the church (carnal Christians and all that stuff) and how you need to turn from sin that it overwhelms the faith aspect of it. "

"turn from sin" is sanctification/service/"walk", not justification. The LORD God repented.

Sounds like a "Lordship Salvation" proponent here-a perversion of the gospel of Christ-Gal. 1)


In Christ,

John M. Whalen

Brother, let me ask you a few return questions.

Can you be paritally saved? From my understanding you can either be truly saved(I guess i could have phrased that better) or your not saved. People claim salvation who aren't saved, that is why I put the word truly there. I come from an area where many people say they are saved but walk in the ways of the world. A little prayer gets them into heaven and then their good to go, in their minds at least.

Salvation is black and white in God's eyes I would say. Or is their a gray area of he might be saved?

"Justification has nothing to do with you giving the LORD God anything, especially the life of a no-good, rotten, filthy sinner. The Lord Jesus Christ gave His life in your place at Calvary, and your no-good, rotten, filthy life is replaced with the resurrected life of the Lord Jesus Christ. You confuse justification with service/sanctification/"walk.""

If your life is replaced with the resurrected life of the Lord Jesus Christ will you not be working for Him? Will you not be doing his will? If you are saved shouldnt you be growing in your walk, and serving him? Its not easy for everyone, for a lot its a battle, but if you have Christ you will win that battle and their will be a change in you.

Im not saying their is a required amount of fruit, Im saying that their should BE fruit (If you are a fruitless tree will you not be hewned down and thrown into the fire?), and that fruit comes from a willingness to be moving towards God. If you understand that the Lord God of all creation sent down his only Son to save you from eternal damnation and you did not want to learn more about Him and grow closer, well that person I do not believe understands the gravity of what they escaped from, and what price had to be payed for it.

"that "you can tell?"
What I get from this is that I should question everyones salvation? A believer knowing someone elses salvation is relevant, because how am I suppose to know if I should witness to them or not. I am just wondering if this was the intention behind that comment.

You say I do not understand the gravity of sin, but I do, my very being was sin before Christ, the very best I was capable of was nothing but filthy rags before the Lord.

I believe I clarified my point on the fruit aspect of it being a willingness to move towards the Lord will(I belive) result in having fruit (not a quanity but an existence of it) Some walks are stronger then others but it will exist.

I never once said that your works justify you before God, but as Brother Luke said, James is talking about justification before men. I will see someones faith through their works and that is how I will know if they are saved or not and if I should be witnessing to them.

But in all honesty, after rereading what I said, I need to not post on no sleep. I wrote that last night after being up all night the previous night due to Black Friday sales. And that could have been much better written. (Got me a laptop)

Im open to any reproaches or instructions because if I am wrong I want to know.

In Love,
-Timothy