[Luke]

I thought that was a given...

It's the Calvinists that limit God. Essentially, God's foreknowledge is based on his eternal decree, so God knows everything that will happen because He said it would happen. Not very omniscient to me.

I think God knows everything that will happen and could happen and would happen and so on..

[JerryW]

George, You seem to do like many others, that is just pick and choose the verses that fit your "theology". Since you do not want to be labeled as a Calvinist or a Armenian you take the "middle of the road theology". The two verses that I have not seen you address is Acts 13:48,"And when the Gentiles heard this they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord, and as many as were ORDAINED to eternal life BELIEVED." And also John 6:44," No man can come to me,except the Father which hath sent me draw him." How do these fit in with your "theology" Or do they?

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by JerryW

George, You seem to do like many others, that is just pick and choose the verses that fit your "theology". Since you do not want to be labeled as a Calvinist or a Armenian you take the "middle of the road theology". The two verses that I have not seen you address is Acts 13:48,"And when the Gentiles heard this they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord, and as many as were ORDAINED to eternal life BELIEVED." And also John 6:44," No man can come to me,except the Father which hath sent me draw him." How do these fit in with your "theology" Or do they?

You are guilty of what you accuse George of, because the Lord also said:

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (John 12:32 KJV)

It also doesn't suprise me that you Calvinists use verses out of John and early Acts to build your doctrine upon. This is an earmark of Calvinists who fail to rightly divide. For every verse that you Calvinists use to build your doctrine, there are 10 (a conservative guess) to support the opposite.

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by Luke

I thought that was a given...

It's the Calvinists that limit God. Essentially, God's foreknowledge is based on his eternal decree, so God knows everything that will happen because He said it would happen. Not very omniscient to me.

I think God knows everything that will happen and could happen and would happen and so on..

No one can limit God. Look at the verse I quoted to JerryW. Jesus uses the words "if I be lifted up from the earth" which shews that the choice to do so was still not made. It shews that Christ had to do one final act of sumitting to the will of the Father. Aren't we glad that Christ chose:

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. (Luke 22:42 KJV)

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen

[George]

Originally Posted by JerryW

George, You seem to do like many others, that is just pick and choose the verses that fit your "theology". Since you do not want to be labeled as a Calvinist or a Armenian you take the "middle of the road theology". The two verses that I have not seen you address is Acts 13:48,"And when the Gentiles heard this they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord, and as many as were ORDAINED to eternal life BELIEVED." And also John 6:44," No man can come to me,except the Father which hath sent me draw him." How do these fit in with your "theology" Or do they?

Aloha brother JerryW,

Patience brother - I haven't finished the study yet. As a matter of fact I will be dealing with John 6:44; John 17:2; Acts 2:39; and Acts 13:48 in my next Post under "Limited Atonement".

I could have dealt with those verses under "Unconditional Election" (and maybe I should have), but please don't judge me (my motives or my methodology) until I have finished the complete study. And then you may judge me all you want - as you should (according to the Scriptures, of course!)

Proverbs 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

Proverbs 16:20 He that handleth a matter wisely shall find good: and whoso trusteth in the LORD, happy is he.

I also am dealing with approximately 50 other verses of Scripture having to do with the issue of the doctrine of "Limited" Atonement" that run from being - mildly, to moderately, to strongly against that doctrine. {Brother Stephen's "conservative guess" was pretty close. }

I am NOT deliberately choosing "the middle road" between Calvinism and Arminianism. I am searching and studying the Scriptures - trying to rightly divide the word of God to determine what God has to say about this issue. I want to know "what is truth" - no matter what the outcome.

If you knew me, you would know that there are many things that I fall short in; and I have many faults; but there is one thing I am not, and that is a middle of the roader - I despise the very thought of "the middle road". Too often the "middle road" is the "broad way"; the way that leads to compromise, accomodation, and concession. And anyone that knows me, knows that I am not one to "sell-out", "trade-off", or "copout". Neither am I satisfied with "half measures" or the "middle course" i.e. "middle ground". {An examination of many of my Posts on this Forum will demonstrate this fact - over and over again}

I can assure you that if I neglect to cite a verse, it is not because I deliberately "pick and choose verses to fit (my) theology" - it's because I have either overlooked (missed) the verses or wasn't aware of them (as brother Stephen's Post #17 and my Post #18 on this Thread demonstrates).

Give me some time brother. It took John Calvin years to work out his doctrine, I have only been into this study for a few months. Of course John didn't have the King James Bible to study from or SwordSearcher as a "study aid", so he did have a disadvantage!

[Luke]

Acts 13:48 mentions no fore-ordination or eternal decree.

Also, George, you should probably cover the Eternal Sonship and "Eternal Begatting" of Christ (the latter being a calvinist error that says Jesus was begotten in Eternity).

[George]

Originally Posted by Luke

Acts 13:48 mentions no fore-ordination or eternal decree.

Also, George, you should probably cover the Eternal Sonship and "Eternal Begatting" of Christ (the latter being a calvinist error that says Jesus was begotten in Eternity).

Aloha brother Luke,

Could you give me some quotes, or can you direct me to a source (sources) where this Calvinist doctrine is being promoted?

If what you say is true (and I don't doubt your sincerity), then you have just added another facet to an already laborious and difficult study. However, since I am dealing with Calvinist "theology", I may have to deal with that issue also.

Thanks for the heads up - I wasn't aware that some Calvinists have embraced this doctrine also.

[JerryW]

Originally Posted by stephanos

You are guilty of what you accuse George of, because the Lord also said:

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (John 12:32 KJV)

It also doesn't suprise me that you Calvinists use verses out of John and early Acts to build your doctrine upon. This is an earmark of Calvinists who fail to rightly divide. For every verse that you Calvinists use to build your doctrine, there are 10 (a conservative guess) to support the opposite.

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen

When you underlined the words, "will draw all men unto me," are you saying "all men" will be saved? I would encourage you to study how the words "all", "all men",and "world" are sometimes used in Scripture. They do not always mean every person individually(as in every human being) but are used to address GROUPS of people, either nationalities(Gentiles and Jews being the most common),or different classes of people(slave or free,rich or poor). One example is Col 3:11, "but Christ is all, and is in ALL." Now, is Christ in ALL(as in every single person), or are ALL(people) saved? Obviously not! Now read the first half of the verse and you can clearly see what Paul meant when he used the word "ALL". Yes, when Christ is lifted up he "will draw all men unto me." Not only will he draw the Jew but also the Gentile. It is important to remember the disposition of the Gentiles prior to Christ. Eph. 2:11-13, states that the Gentiles were "without hope and God in the world," but now they have been brought near thru the shed blood of Christ. The gospel is for all nations, for rich or poor, slave or free.

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by JerryW

When you underlined the words, "will draw all men unto me," are you saying "all men" will be saved? I would encourage you to study how the words "all", "all men",and "world" are sometimes used in Scripture. They do not always mean every person individually(as in every human being) but are used to address GROUPS of people, either nationalities(Gentiles and Jews being the most common),or different classes of people(slave or free,rich or poor). One example is Col 3:11, "but Christ is all, and is in ALL." Now, is Christ in ALL(as in every single person), or are ALL(people) saved? Obviously not! Now read the first half of the verse and you can clearly see what Paul meant when he used the word "ALL". Yes, when Christ is lifted up he "will draw all men unto me." Not only will he draw the Jew but also the Gentile. It is important to remember the disposition of the Gentiles prior to Christ. Eph. 2:11-13, states that the Gentiles were "without hope and God in the world," but now they have been brought near thru the shed blood of Christ. The gospel is for all nations, for rich or poor, slave or free.

There is no context which would indicate anything other than what is said in that passage of Scripture. Nor does that passage say all men will be saved, but rather that all men will be drawn. The question is left to each of us: "What will YOU do with Jesus?"

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen

JerryW, it's a difficult issue for many Calvinists, my best advice is to keep studying the KJV and pray for God's wisdom on this. You don't need that tulip, all you need is that KJV... I pray that God leads you into a better understanding of his truth. I had a good friend in college many years ago who was struggling with this all the time, I realize when you have been indoctrinated a certain way it's hard but we know that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (II Peter 3:9)