[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by peopleoftheway

This was my point Brother Tony, the faith that Christ had to endure the cross and die for me is what justifies me. I think I may have worded this post all wrong. We are not kept by our own faith, if that's the case I have been lost a long time ago, it is By Christ's faith that I know my salvation is true and secure.

I agree 100 percent my friend. I did not enter the thread on Calvinism, that doctrine denies what the Scriptures teach clearly: We voluntarily make the decision to believe or not believe. Our minds and flesh receives not the things of God, but when we believe, he makes the things of the Spirit real, he gives us the discernment to know what is spiritual, and I thank Him daily for that faith, that imputed faith and imputed righteousness.

Grace and peace.

Tony

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by CKG

That makes absolutely no sense. When I got saved my sins were washed away, Jesus' righteousness was imputed to me, I was crucified, buried, and raised with Christ and I am now dead to sin, God's Holy Spirit has now indwelt and sealed me unto the day of redemption so that He is personally with me everywhere I go and in everything I do and its all by His grace, but I had to personally by faith believe the facts of His Word. These facts are the faith we are to earnestly contend for.

Craig, it makes perfect sense when you see it as inputed faith, just as we have imputed righteousness. This is what the NIV and the NKJV try to obscure: The doctrine of imputed faith, Christ's faith. The faith of Christ. People say to me, "oh, the faith of Jesus Christ must be our 'faith', Christianity." No, the faith of Christ. His faith, not mine. His Spirit leads me into all understanding. By His grace He gives us the gift ofHis faith. The long-suffering of Brandon, the love of George, the patience of Luke, the righteousness of God, the faith of Christ. That's my belief and teaching when teach: Imputed faith, in the same manner the righteousness of God is imputed, so is His faith.

The word of God says it better than I can:

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Ro 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Ro 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Ro 10:7 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Gal. 2:1616 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Grace and peace brother.

Tony

[CKG]

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

Craig, it makes perfect sense when you see it as inputed faith, just as we have imputed righteousness. This is what the NIV and the NKJV try to obscure: The doctrine of imputed faith, Christ's faith. The faith of Christ. People say to me, "oh, the faith of Jesus Christ must be our 'faith', Christianity." No, the faith of Christ. His faith, not mine. His Spirit leads me into all understanding. By His grace He gives us the gift ofHis faith. The long-suffering of Brandon, the love of George, the patience of Luke, the righteousness of God, the faith of Christ. That's my belief and teaching when teach: Imputed faith, in the same manner the righteousness of God is imputed, so is His faith.

The word of God says it better than I can:

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Ro 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Ro 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Ro 10:7 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Gal. 2:1616 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Grace and peace brother.

Tony

Not a single verse you referenced says anything about "imputed faith".

[George]

Originally Posted by Winman

Brother George, I have another question, and I ask this in sincerety.

If faith is a gift we receive when we believe, then why did Jesus criticize Thomas for being faithless? And why did Jesus criticize his disciples for being of little faith?

Matt 8:26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

If you do not give someone something they cannot possess unless you give it to them in the first place, then how can you criticize them for not having it?

Aloha brother Winman,

I'm real pleased that you took the time to read the links. I am "working" on answering some of your questions - but they are coming fast and furious.

Please be patient, because they are excellent questions - that deserved to be answered.

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

[CKG]

George's comments in blue.


I agree that Paul is making a contrast, but the contrast is between "Grace" and "Faith" (the ways & means of our Salvation) NOT between Grace and "Salvation" or Faith and "Salvation".

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

You are correct. The contrast is not between "Grace" and “Faith", “Grace” and “Salvation” or “Faith” and “Salvation". The verse tells us the nature of the contrast; something is the gift of God: not of works. The contrast is gift versus works. It’s definitely not faith, could be grace, but most likely salvation.

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. (Romans 11:6)

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

I guess this is an area we will have to disagree on.

Paul contrasts "faith" and "works" in several of his Epistles, so it makes "perfect sense" to contrast the "GIFT" of "faith" with "works".}

Paul never contrasts the “gift of faith” with works. He never even uses the term “gift of faith”.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. (Romans 3:27)

Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; (Romans 9:32)

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Galatians 2:16)

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (Galatians 3:2)

He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (Galatians 3:5)

No one is denying that salvation is a GIFT from God - What some of us are saying is: it's NOT THE ONLY "GIFT" that we have received from God!


If I said so I didn’t mean to, but I don’t think I said every time the word gift is used in the Bible it refers to salvation. You have to look at the context. And the context of Ephesians 2:1-10 is God’s saving us.

If faith is a gift then why did Jesus rebuke those for having little or none, but spoke well of those who did.

Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

Matthew 9:22
But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

Matthew 9:29
Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

Matthew 15:28
Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Mark 10:52
And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.

Luke 18:42
And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

Matthew 8:26
And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

Matthew 16:8
Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?

Luke 8:25
And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.

[Winman]

Hmmm....

I'm still not getting it. I know that Christ's righeousness is imputed to us. But I have never seen a verse in scripture that says faith is imputed to us.

And there are many verses that say "our faith"

Matt 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

Luke 8:25 And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.

Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

1 Cor 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

1 Cor 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

2 Cor 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

2 Cor 10:15 Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,

Eph 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

Phil 2:17 Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all.

Col 1:4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,

Col 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

1 Thes 1:8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread

1 Thes 3:2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:

1 Thes 3:6 But now when Timotheus came from you unto us, and brought us good tidings of your faith and charity, and that ye have good remembrance of us always, desiring greatly to see us, as we also to see you: 7 Therefore, brethren, we were comforted over you in all our affliction and distress by your faith:

1 Thes 3:10 Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?

Thats just a start, see also

2 Thes 1:3, James 1:3, 1 Pet 1:7, 1 Pet 1:9, 1 Pet 1:21, 2 Pet 1:5, Jude 1:20

I need to get off the computer, but some of these verses bring up interesting questions. If Christ's faith is imputed to us, then why does it need to be perfected which is lacking (1 Thes 3:10), and why would it need increasing (2 Cor 10:15)? No such things are ever said of righteousness.

I am not saying you are wrong, I need to study this more. I have never heard of imputed faith before. But the Lord himself asked "Where is your faith?" (Luke 8:25)

[Samuel]

I have never came across a passage, that implied to me Faith was imputed either. The verse below says faith is a gift, and not a faith of our own, but a faith given of God. Which allows us to believe, but still must be acted upon to bring salvation.
God also keeps us through this faith gift, otherwise our own wishey/washey faith would fail us; probably very quickly.
I think that is why you will see someone post once in a while, about being confused, and doubting. Paul said in Thessalonians that not all men have faith. And some may try, or have to come to a kind of faith on their own; which soon fails. Which leaves them doubting and confused, or worse yet self deceived.

Eph:2:8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

[George]

Brother George
"Thank you for that very instructive post. I read 5 of the links you posted at the bottom. I enjoyed the way you made a clear distinction between "believe" and "faith". That was excellent instruction that I will remember.

Now you are going to think I am picking on you, but in the 5th post at bottom you did something you criticized me for. "

“I hope you understand I pointed that out in a lighthearted way.”

”But actually, I have a question for you. Do we have faith in the scriptures? I mean, we can actually hold the scriptures in our hands and see them with our eyes, so then according to the strict definition of faith, then can we only believe the scriptures and not have faith?

I hope I worded that right.”

Aloha brother Winman,

First off, I took no offense at your comments. I believe that they are sincere, thoughtful, and appropriate. (and "challenging"!} If I understand your point in your Post #15 I think that you are saying that there is a contradiction between what I wrote before and what I wrote to you, and on its face it certainly appears that way. Upon re-reading my words (and if I had it to do over) I would eliminate the words - "by faith" {poor choice of words}.

It might appear that there is a contradiction, but I believe the following comments may clarify WHY Thomas' situation was different (i.e. before the time that God turned to the Gentiles) than those saints that have been saved since God turned to the Gentiles.

The main reason that the Lord Jesus Christ criticized Thomas for being "faithless" is because Thomas was in the "transition period", {that period of time which began after the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ; and the time when God rejected the Nation of Israel and turned to the Gentiles} wherein God was still dealing exclusively with the Jews and hadn't yet revealed the Gospel of the Grace of God (Paul's Gospel), or the fact that the Gentiles were part of the “promise” to Abraham. And since Christ was still physically present, the individual "faith" of a Jewish believer was still yet in "operation". I do not believe that the "faith of Christ" became available until God began to turn to the Gentiles. {There is also this - Thomas was “faithless” (without “faith”) because he refused to BELIEVE.}

This "transition period" is one of the most misunderstood parts of the Holy Scriptures. But if a person takes the time to read the early Chapters of Acts [Chapters 1-7] carefully, it will soon become apparent that Peter and the other apostles are preaching exclusively to Israel (Israelites & proselytes) and the message is one of repentance for killing their Messiah and King – NOT the Gospel of the Grace of God (i.e. Paul’s Gospel).

The following is an extremely short overview of this “transition period”:

Acts Chapter 1 through Chapter 7 = the period of time where the Holy Spirit appeals to the whole nation of Israel (through the apostles preaching) to repent of killing their Messiah and King (Acts Chapter 7 ends with the stoning {martyrdom} of Steven).

Acts Chapter 8 = God begins to call the Gentiles - the Samaritans first {part Jewish} and then a Jewish Proselyte {the Ethiopian Eunuch}.

Acts Chapter 9 = the conversion and call of "Saul" - later called "Paul" (who became the Apostle to the Gentiles).

Acts Chapters 10-11 = God cutting the nation of Israel off {because of their unbelief and their rejection of the Apostles "REPORT"}; and (through the preaching of the Apostle Peter – Acts 10) His turning to the Gentiles, i.e. the beginning of the inclusion of the Gentiles, (not just Samaritans {part Jews} or Gentile proselytes to Judaism), within the household of God by BELIEF in the Lord Jesus Christ

Acts Chapter 12 = the beginning of the “shift” of the center of Christianity (from Jerusalem to Antioch) “And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.” [Acts 11:26]; and a “shift” in emphasis from ministry of the Apostle Peter (who had “apostleship of the circumcision” – Galatians 2:7-8) - to the ministry of the Apostle Paul (the Apostle to the Gentiles - Romans 11:13; Galatians 2:7-8; 1Timothy 2:7; 2Timothy 1:11); and with it, a “shift” away from the Jews to the Gentiles.

Soon after the death of Stephen, God called the Apostle Paul and revealed several "mysteries" to him, one of which was that the Gentiles could (by believing the Gospel) become fellow heirs of the promise of God made to Abraham. All of the benefits of the New Covenant became available for all those who BELIEVED the Gospel (Paul's Gospel), that is all those who RECEIVED Christ and who became the sons of God (i.e. born again).

And now on to the second part of your Post:

”But actually, I have a question for you. Do we have faith in the scriptures? I mean, we can actually hold the scriptures in our hands and see them with our eyes, so then according to the strict definition of faith, then can we only believe the scriptures and not have faith?

I hope I worded that right.”

Tough question! I am going to try to answer your questions, but you must understand that what you ask is quite complicated and my answer may not satisfy you.

“Do we have faith in the scriptures?” Yes, I believe we do. The question arises – Who’s “faith”? If you don’t mind, I will use my own experience to demonstrate: From 1968 through to 1988 (or thereabouts) I believed and had “faith” (my own “faith”) that the King James Bible is God’s perfect, infallible, Holy word of God. That “faith” was based on 12,000 to 15,000 hours of study about the issue of “Which Bible”, but it was my own faith.

Sometime around 1988 (I cannot be sure exactly when, because I was not aware of it until sometime later) I came to the realization that even with all of the study that I had done, it was impossible for me to “prove” the King James Bible is God’s Holy word, because even if we had all of the “Originals” in our possession (which we have NONE) the “scholars” would still be arguing over the “MEANING” of those words! I came to the realization that God has set this issue (Which Bible?) up based on “BELIEF” and “FAITH” – exactly as He has set up the issue of salvation!

In regards to the “which Bible” issue, for my own “faith”, I needed all of that “study” - to rely on and bolster that “faith”. But when I came to the realization that no matter how much more I might study the issue (or how much more time I might spend in that study) that in the end I still would not be able to “prove” (to the doubters) that the King James Bible is God’s Holy word I came around to the BELIEF that God has surely PRESERVED His words exactly as He promised, and that those words can be found in the King James Bible: perfect, Holy, infallible, inspired and without error; and it doesn’t matter how much time we study the issue – at some point we are just going to have to BELIEVE God for what He promised and RECEIVE His “faith” for it. My own “faith” might waver, but His “faith” is sure, and that is what I am now relying on – NOT all of the study or hours of study.

The fact that we can hold the Holy Scriptures (in One Book) in our hands does not nullify the need to BELIEVE in/on those Scriptures. Any more than the fact that when the Lord Jesus Christ was on the earth (and the people could see Him and hear Him) nullified the need for them to BELIEVE in/on Him. Many people (sadly many “Christians”) can hold the Scriptures in their hands (and read them, or hear them) and still not believe. Just as many people saw and heard the Lord Jesus Christ during His earthly ministry and still refused to believe Him.

The Book that we hold in our hands is just “paper and ink” to the unbeliever, like any other book. For those of us who genuinely BELIEVE the words within that Book, they are far more than just “paper and ink” – they are LIFE! That takes BELIEF; that takes “FAITH”, and you can’t “see” that. Our BELIEF is in the words that can be found in The Book – NOT THE PAPER AND INK (that are seen).

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

When we “read” the words of God in the Holy Bible, we are actually “hearing” the words of God that proceed out of His mouth; they are NOT just the words of man written on paper with ink, they are, instead, the Holy words “that proceedeth out of the mouth of God”. When a person “sees” the words written in the Holy Bible, they don’t necessarily BELIEVE them, just because they can be seen, if they did, then everyone who picks up the Bible and reads it would believe. No, it’s more than just seeing The Book (the paper & ink); it’s “HEARING” the words that counts:

Job 12:11 Doth not the ear try words? and the mouth taste his meat?

Job 34:3 For the ear trieth words, as the mouth tasteth meat.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

This is an operation that cannot be “seen”, which takes place in the heart of an individual when they first BELIEVE the Gospel.

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I hope that I have answered your questions satisfactorily. I shall try to answer some of your other questions soon.

[George]

Originally Posted by Samuel

"I have never came across a passage, that implied to me Faith was imputed either. The verse below says faith is a gift, and not a faith of our own, but a faith given of God. Which allows us to believe, but still must be acted upon to bring salvation.
God also keeps us through this faith gift, otherwise our own wishey/washey faith would fail us; probably very quickly.
I think that is why you will see someone post once in a while, about being confused, and doubting. Paul said in Thessalonians that not all men have faith. And some may try, or have to come to a kind of faith on their own; which soon fails. Which leaves them doubting and confused, or worse yet self deceived."

Eph:2:8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Aloha brother Samuel,

Your statement: "The verse below says faith is a gift, and not a faith of our own, but a faith given of God. Which allows us to believe, but still must be acted upon to bring salvation.

I don't understand what you mean by: "but still must be acted upon to bring salvation." What "action" (on our part) is necessary "to bring salvation"?

I'm afraid you have the "horse before the cart".

The Chronological order is:

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, AFTER that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also AFTER that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

God does not give us the "faith" to "BELIEVE" (Nowhere's in the Bible does it say that) - He gives us "the faith of Christ" AFTER we have BELIEVED!

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The Scriptural order is: HEARING - BELIEVING - and then - FAITH.

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Thomas was "FAITHLESS" (without "faith") - because he did NOT BELIEVE. That is - He did not possess "faith" because He refused to BELIEVE.

[George]

Aloha CKG,

Your handling of my words is a huge disappointment to me. Please read what you did.

George's statement:
Paul contrasts "faith" and "works" in several of his Epistles, so it makes "perfect sense" to contrast the "GIFT" of "faith" with "works".}

CKG'S statement:
Paul never contrasts the “gift of faith” with works. He never even uses the term “gift of faith”.

I said: "Paul contrasts "faith" and "works" in several of his Epistles" - NOT "Paul contrasts "the gift of faith” with works." as you so cleverly manipulated my words!

WHY do Christians DO THIS? WHY must you CHANGE what I said? I never said that "Paul contrasts the “gift of faith” with works" (you ADDED words to what I said). I very clearly said that "Paul contrasts "faith" and "works" in several of his Epistles, and then I went on to say "so it makes perfect sense" {for us} "to contrast the "GIFT" of "faith" with "works." If you don't understand what I was saying, don't CHANGE it to make it understandable to you (I am sure that there are many on the Forum that understand exactly what I said - and if you didn't, you should have asked me {like brother Winman} rather than manipulate my words). And for the record, I never made the "claim" that Paul ever used the term “gift of faith”.

Have you read ANY of Steve Rich's Posts? Have you taken any time to honestly research the other side of this issue? Or are you determined, at any cost, to push your point of view - even if it means twisting my words to suit your purpose?

Perhaps you didn't "mean" to CHANGE my words or twist, or wrest them, or take them out of context - but that is, in essence, what you did. I try real hard not to read "meaning" into the words of other people, or change their words to suit my own purposes, I would appreciate it, if, from now on, you would have the courtesy to do the same to me.