[Diligent]

Originally Posted by beloved57

A freewill offering has nothing to do with mans freewill. A freewill offering was a offering that just wasnt required by law of moses lol..

The "lol" is that you can say that and be serious. Obviously, man choosing to do something not "required" by the law constitutes a freedom of choice -- a freedom you are arguing does not exist.

So please show a verse where it states man has a freewill..

Here's one:

Ezra 7:13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.

Originally Posted by Diligent

The "lol" is that you can say that and be serious. Obviously, man choosing to do something not "required" by the law constitutes a freedom of choice -- a freedom you are arguing does not exist.





Here's one:

Ezra 7:13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.

The verses dont say man has a freewill, you are desperate arent you.

All these verses are saying is that they gave freely of an offering, has nothing to do with their wills being free from Gods sovereignty..

prov 20:

24Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

acts 4:

27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

The most you are doing by giving these weak examples is proving that God caused those folks to willingly give..

Didnt you realize that God turns all hearts in the direction He wants ?

prov 21:

1The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

You still have not proved absolutely nothing, man has no freewill..Please provide a verse that says man has a freewill..I am waiting..

People are obviously confused what freewill means and what I deny and the bible denies as well that man has not, and that is mans will is not free from the control of Gods sovereign will which is supreme at all times..

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by beloved57

The verses dont say man has a freewill, you are desperate arent you.

That is the obvious, plain implication from the wording of the verse: "which are minded of their own freewill" -- your doctrine insists that men have no freedom of will in their minds, and we're not just talking about salvation.

Calvinists have to play some real mental gymnastics to get around the clear meaning of quite a few verses.

Men can obviously resist "some" will of God. God has at least two forms of will -- sovereign will and permissive will. Clearly we have latitude to break from God's will on many occasion -- and even utterly resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51). Calvinism has an imperfect understanding of sovereignty (there is no wisdom in the Calvinist definition of the term).

I find arguing with people who hold to those doctrines generally fruitless, and I understand the power of that imperfect comprehension of sovereignty because I once held to it myself. I can only hope that others reading here will user their, ahem, free will to recognize that Calvinism is not an accurate theology and inquire further by reading a great book (The Other Side of Calvinism). Maybe even the Holy Spirit will deliver some others from the snare of Calvinism, which puts God in a box that just doesn't do him his due glory.

I have nothing against Calvinists, and learn a lot from them on other issues, but I can't help but chuckle at the idea of someone trying to convince someone else of anything for which they believe no free will exists to make a choice.

[Debau]

Originally Posted by beloved57

The verses dont say man has a freewill, you are desperate arent you...

This has not been just about Calvinism and it's false doctrine. This has been about words, and what they mean. It's not just a matter of these folks not willing to look at the text. They have morphed words that make up the text to mean what they do not. This is an even more blaring example than the Bible correctors dynamic equivilance folly. This is an example of post modern subjective thinking that embraces a both/and philosophy. It is useless to point out truth to these folks. Truth is subjective to them.

That is the obvious, plain implication from the wording of the verse: "which are minded of their own freewill" -- your doctrine insists that men have no freedom of will in their minds, and we're not just talking about salvation.

You have yet to prove that mans will is free from Divine Sovereignty, you cant do it, scripture does not teach it..

In fact, your thinking is evil says the bible..james 4:

13Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:

14Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

15For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
16But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.

17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.


This passage teaches that men should always consider their wills in subjection to the Divine will..

To boast about freewill of man is evil its boasting sir..

[Biblestudent]

Originally Posted by beloved57

Yes it was, not any more if you read the passage correctly, sins sovereignty is supplanted by the reigning of grace..

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

vs 21:

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord

so your philosophy gives more respect to the effects of sin by adam, than the effects of grace by Jesus christ..

1. Sin WAS sovereign? What do you mean by that? Sin is sovereign only to the elect few, so that grace is sovereign to another elect few?
2. Sin reignED over all. Have all sinned? Sovereign grace reignS now. Are all saved?
3. Christ died for "ALL". Did Christ die only for the "elect"? "ALL" have sinned. Only the "elect" have sinned?

[Biblestudent]

The word "sovereign" is not found in the KJB.

I have nothing else to say to you for I have showed you enough scripture to write a bible, and you have barley given a verse..lol you just hush and let your superiors try to prove something because you are a failure sir..lol

Originally Posted by Biblestudent

1. Sin WAS sovereign? What do you mean by that? Sin is sovereign only to the elect few, so that grace is sovereign to another elect few?
2. Sin reignED over all. Have all sinned? Sovereign grace reignS now. Are all saved?
3. Christ died for "ALL". Did Christ die only for the "elect"? "ALL" have sinned. Only the "elect" have sinned?

Yes only the elect are saved, all else have been ordained to eternal death..