Charismatics aren't cults?

2 Timothy 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Webster's 1828: FABLE, v.i.

1. To feign; to write fiction.

Vain now the tales which fabling poets tell.

2. To tell falsehoods; as, he fables not.


What do you think the "perfect" in this verse represents?
1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Jot&Tittle

Originally Posted by jerry

I didn't say nor imply charismatics were a cult (though there certainly are groups within that spectrum that fit the bill - such as those that teach Oneness doctrine, Prosperity Gospel) - what I did say is that they teach false doctrine. Be offended if you want (I am not going to change my views just because you are a pentecostal or charismatic - I make no apology for firmly standing against false teachings - see Psalm 119:104, 128) - but make sure you are getting offended at what I actually said.

That makes sense!

Psalms 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

Men will always be offended as they see through a glass, darkly. We should only be concerned if God is offended.

Charismatics aren't cults?

I guess this is a good time to just leave it alone. To disagree is one thing. I'll accept Jerry's explaination as a strong dissagreement with the "gifts of the Spirit" issue (I don't believe in the Oneness doctrine or hyper-faith movement). However, Jot&Tittle has implied by his response that Pentecostals (charismatics) are not saved. That's a shame. I hope you really don't think people will miss Heaven because they speak in tongues.

Sorry, but way too many charismatics tell me they received the Holy Ghost when they spoke in tongues. In addition, all indicate they can lose their salvation. Whatever they got was not what I got. I know thats not real theologically deep, however some things are better left plainly said.

No comment?

What do you think the "perfect" in this verse represents?
1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Jot&Tittle

Originally Posted by Pastor Mikie

I hope you really don't think people will miss Heaven because they speak in tongues.

I think the problem comes in when Charismatics say that you must have a second blessing of the Holy Spirit which is only evidenced by speaking in tongues.

Some may even depend on tongues speaking for salvation.

When a person is saved, they receive the Holy Spirit. The main role of the Holy Spirit is to give the believer the power to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ.

We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, we receive the Holy Spirit. This is a done deal. Sanctification is a process. A true believer will be sanctified. What does tongues have to do with salvation, nothing.

Speaking in tongues was a sign to the Jews.

Isaiah 28:11-12 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Speaking in tongues was the miraculous ability to speak in a foreign language that they did not know. Is that what you are talking about when you say you speak in tongues? Or are you repeating repetitious babbling? I know many that were in Charismatic Churches and they all say the same thing that there is much peer pressure to repeat these babblings? This is not scriptural. I've heard these things and they would be very easy to repeat. although, I would not be able to speak in a foreign language without first learning the language. That would be miraculous!

Acts 2:6-7 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

No sense in replying here. You are definitely hostile to the whole issue. So, be blessed and "give'm Heaven!"

PS: I expressed what I thought about 1st Corinthians 13:8-10 in an earlier post.

Again as I said in an earlier post, in 1 Corinthians 13 "that which is perfect" I believe is the Word of God. Really what would be the purpose of tounges today? If they are for a sign then why do we need the Word of God. Isn't that the Bible's job to show people the truth. I firmly believe that when the originals texts were finished being written that tounges ceased and they are no longer needed today.

Even if they were possible today, the way many people practice it is unbiblical.

#1) 1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

I know there are many out there that have more than three get up there and babble, sometimes there is no interpreter. It just leaves the congregation thinking about how spiritual that preacher is. It also specifies let one interpret. I know that sometimes people will have three people "speaking in tounges" and three people "interpreting." According to scripture this is unbiblical.

#2) 1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

I know for sure that many go haywire with this one. It's plain to understand from scripture that it is not biblical to have women speak in tounges.

These are God's viewpoints on how tounges were to be carried out IN THE DAY. They are no longer needed. Tell one thing that tounges accomplish that the Word of God can't accomplish.

There is a woman I know that goes to "Church of Christ". They do not allow any form of musical instruments in the church. They sing without the instruments. I don't fully agree with that (nor some of their doctrine). I think somewhere in the Bible it talks about harps and another form of musical instrument. . . So I see no need to eliminate all forms of musical instruments.......but in my opinion we don't need to hear the beat...beat...beating of drums.
As someone else mentioned, it brings back memories of the past when we lived in the flesh....drugs, alcohol, rock~n~roll. Every time I put a Christian radio station on and hear this contemporary trash I want to vomit. It reminds me so much of my younger days when I did all those fleshly things. I know not all agree with me and that does not matter. What does matter is would God listen to this so called "Christian" rock music? Really, would He?
Does anyone listen to the lyrics to some of these so called Christian songs? Some never mention Jesus, God or the Bible. Where is God in that?

I wanted to share what I found on the web earlier today. It's a bit lengthy and I don't agree with all of the content. However, this article makes some real good points from a Biblical perspective. What's Wrong with Christian Rock/Rap?

by David J. Stewart


John the Baptist was beheaded by Herod for speaking our uncompromisingly against Herod's adulterous affair with Herod's brother's wife (Herodias). Herodias hated John so much that she wanted him dead, and that's exactly what happened (Matthew 14:1-11). The early church were faithful witnesses of the Truth of God's Word. As a result people were getting saved, and the idol makers were losing business. In anger, the idol makers almost killed Paul (Acts 19:27 and 30, "So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth ... And when Paul would have entered in unto the people, the disciples suffered him not." Paul was severely beaten in Acts 21:32. He was eventually beheaded by Nero. Stephen was stoned to death in Acts Chapter 7. James was beheaded in Acts Chapter 12. These early Christians were HATED of the world; not followed and admired. Jesus had forewarned them of this in John 15:19, "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you."

Compare this, in contrast, to today's milquetoast believer who rarely stands for anything. I dare you to go to ANY so-called "Christian" rocker or rapper's website and show me the simple plan of salvation, the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You cannot! The reason is because they are of the world, and the world follows them. This is why professed "Christian" rock-n-roll bands like P.O.D., Mercy Me, and Third Day have all appeared on the godless TONIGHT SHOW with Jay Leno. Do you think they would invite John the Baptist and allow him to preach on the TONIGHT SHOW? No way! James 4:4 plainly teaches that to be "a friend" of the world is to become God's enemy. The Greek word for "friend" in this Scripture means "to assist." Thus, to assist the world, in any capacity, makes us God's enemy because we are then helping the Devil. Much of the CCM (Contemporary Christian Music) on the market is worldly trash, and not "Christian" by any standards. Christian rock/rap "assist" the Devil by drawing young people away from the Lord. Please don't miss what I'm about to say. There is NO such thing as "Christians rock." It may be "religious rock"; but, it is certainly not Christian. You can't repacked rock-n-roll music and label it as being "Christian," just as you can't repackage witchcraft (which is all that Harry Potter is -- witchcraft repackaged). Witchcraft is sinful, no matter what form it appears as; likewise, rock music is sinful, no matter in what form it appears. I want to make 2 observations about Christian rock and rap:

Secular musicians readily admit that IT IS THE MUSIC ITSELF THAT IS DEMONIC, not necessarily the words...
During a 1993 Oprah Winfrey interview, Michael Jackson, explained the reason for some of his filthy sexual gestures during his concerts:


"It happens subliminally. IT'S THE MUSIC THAT COMPELS ME TO DO IT. You don't think about it, it just happens. I'M SLAVE TO THE RHYTHM."
(The Evening Star, Feb. 11, 1993, p. A10)

Nothing about the lyrics! It's the MUSIC!

How can the Holy Spirit of the Bible use such wicked, fleshly music!

Regardless of the lyrics!

Religious Rock/Rap music becomes a spiritual end in itself for most listeners. There's not enough comprehendible Bible doctrine in most CCM to edify anyone. It's all about the flesh. Most CCM appeals to the flesh. The use of religious terms and phrases here and there aren't enough to lead anyone to Christ. Every Catholic, Jehovah's Witness, Church of Christ, United Church of Christ, Mormon, Lutheran, Seventh Day Adventist, and other cults--believe that Jesus died on the cross (but they ADD something to faith alone in Christ). The Christian Rock/Rap being sold to the public as "Christian" is religious rubbish. Despite the artist's claims that people are coming to God through their music, people are not coming to Christ to be BORN AGAIN; they're coming to religion in the name of Christ. There's a BIG difference! There are tens-of-millions of people coming to religion in the name of Christ; but they've never been BORN AGAIN by the incorruptible Word of God. 1st Peter 1:23 states, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." Most Catholics claim to be "born again"; but they cannot be born again through their churches' traditions. They have been deceived by the Vatican and their priests. Jesus confirmed this in Mark 7:13, "Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition..." Traditions are manmade doctrines. Catholics don't follow the Word of God; therefore, how can they be born again is lieu of the plain teaching of 1st peter 1:23. If you don't recognize the Bible as God's Word, then the Lake of Fire WILL one day be your eternal prison.

Christian Rock/Rap music is made for the children of IGNORANT Christian parents. Why ignorant? Many professed Christian parents have the silly mentality that it's better for their teen to listen to Stryper , KUTLESS, Petra, or TobyMac; than to listen to Iron Maiden, or Van Halen. The truth is that no Christian teen should listen to EITHER. If you have no control over what your teen listens to; then you are a wimp, and a failure, as a parent. I'll tell you what, it will be a cold day in Hell before any child of mine will disobey me. I set the rules, and they keep them...period! There's no if, ands, or buts about it.

Christian Rock inoculates it's listeners. In other words, just as a vaccine is administered to prevent someone from getting the real thing, so does Christian rock inoculate it's listeners by giving them just enough religion to keep them from the Truth of God's Word. Satan loves all the religious talk, just don't mention the Truth of God's Word. The Truth friend, is that ANYONE who teaches that the sacrament of "holy baptism" or "holy communion" brings the forgiveness of sins is a LIAR! Martin Luther was a liar! The Lutheran Church lies to people! The Pope is a liar! The Council of Trent were a bunch of liars! The Catholic Church lies to people! Salvation can only happen by faith ALONE in Jesus, the Christ. This is because it was Jesus Who shed His precious blood to pay for our sins (Colossians 1:14; Hebrews 9:22-24; 1st John 1:7; Revelation 7:14). Salvation is a FREE GIFT (Romans 5:15), which is NOT conditional on anything we can do. We need only believe upon Jesus Christ as our personal Saviour. Will you receive Christ now?

John 1:12,13 states, "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." The "blood" in John 1:13 speaks of our natural birth; hence, no one is born saved. Some Jewish people think they are born saved, simply because they're Jewish; but that is a lie (Romans 3:10,23). Nothing done in the flesh can save us. Nothing done by the will of man can save us. There is only one way to be saved--God. John 6:40 tells us that God's will is "...that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life..." This wishy-washy, pantywaist, milquetoast, ear-tickling, back-scratching, gospeless, deadbeat, persecutionless, worldly, so-called "Christianity" professed by nearly all CCM artists makes God sick!!! Whatever happened to 2nd Timothy 3:12, "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." Take another good look at John the Baptist's head if you want to see what real Christianity is about. There is something very wrong, phony, and synthetic about today's Christian music artists/producers. I will stand uncompromisingly against it, and so should you!
The Apostle Paul declares in Galatians 4:16, "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" It's ironic, I receive many hateful e-mails from professed "Christian" rockers who criticize me for preaching the Word of God. The Bible clearly teaches that believers in Christ are to COME OUT of the heathen world (2nd Corinthians 6:14-17). I believe one of the main reason why professed Christians won't REPENT of their religious rock-n-roll/rap is because they're NOT Christians at all. They have religion without Truth, Churchianity without Christianity. And let me say, the Christian country music scene today is just as grim. Many professed "Christians" in the Christian country music business are NOT saved. This is evidenced clearly when we see Johnny Cash singing songs by Satanist Glen Danzig. Although Dolly Parton has sang her share of Gospel songs, she also recently sang Led Zeppelin's demonic STAIRWAY TO HEAVEN on her album. Tragically, this is what Christianity in America has come to. Should it be surprising that Christianity Today would be promoting Harry Potter's witchcraft? Not at all. Religious rock is demonic, as is ALL rock music. The music itself is evil. The people who sing and produce the music are NOT living Christ-honoring separated lives from the world. God commands us to EXPOSE the works of darkness, not repackage them to make lots of money (Ephesians 5:11). Religious rockers/rappers are raking in hundreds-of-millions of dollars for the industry. They have all sold their souls to Satan and are reprobate enemies of God. Bible Christianity, if practiced properly, will make you extremely UNPOPULAR with the world, just as it did John the Baptist, and the early Christians in the Book of Acts.