Something else that needs to be brought in to consideration is the time and the place and culture. Was wine (regular, low alcoholic table wine) common at meals in that period? Also - Jesus is God - He makes the rules. Remember that he came against the RELIGIOUS people of His day due to their stringent rules and traditions. (I see a lot of that HERE in this forum ) Jesus said He was the Lord of the Sabbath and did things contrary to the traditions of men - even when clearly in the old testament "the Lord commanded" and Moses wrote it down - Jesus made changes as He lived among them.

Lighten up folks and LIVE for Christ, in the Joy of the Lord.

[Biblestudent]

Hello, everybody! Some thought came across me which I think I may share impromptu:

I guess the KJV "built-in" dictionary defines "wine" various ways. Using ONLY THE BIBLE TO DEFINE THE BIBLE, here are my rough observations:

1. "Juice" is mentioned ONCE in the KJV and it does not refer to grape juice.
2. There is a "wine" that is "juice of my pomegranate" .

Song of Solomon 8:2 I would lead thee, and bring thee into my mother's house, who would instruct me: I would cause thee to drink of spiced wine of the juice of my pomegranate.


3. There is a "wine" that can make a person "drunken".

Genesis 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

4. There is a "wine" that is a "strong drink".
5. There is a "wine" that is "vinegar".
6. There is a "wine" that is a "liquor".
7. There is a "liquor" that is of "grapes".

Numbers 6:3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.

8. There is a "strong wine" and it was a "drink offering".

Numbers 28:7 And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the LORD for a drink offering.

9. "Wine" is either or not "strong drink".

Deuteronomy 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

10. "Wine" is either or not "grapes".

Deuteronomy 28:39 Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress them, but shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them.

11. "New wine" is either opposite of "old wine" or opposed to "strong drink" .

Luke 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Isaiah 65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.
Matthew 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Are Christians to drink "wine"? Yes or No, or Yes and No?

My answer would be: "Which wine?" 2 Tim. 2:15

May Christians "drink moderately" (as all wine ads on TV say) strong wine? Yes or No, or Yes and No?

My answer would be, will I be able to convince some older members of the church "who were in Christ before me" to quit buying San Miguel Beer, if they see "red wine" in my home? If I say, that's just for "cooking" or for "my stomach's sake", they would say Tanduay Rhum or Red Horse Beer are our "vitamins".

Just want to inform everybody that I was brought up in a legalistic childhood (under tutor, under the law) but trained in a liberalistic youth (under grace). I'm over 21, and as an adult(although I think I'm still a child living with my parents handling adult responsibilities), I had seen the legalist camp and the liberal camp and I felt the need to choose. One camp says, "Don't!"; the other camp says, "Why not?" Out of my liberal mind (as my personality test shows that I am "liberal", rather than "conservative"), I seem to see the advantage of putting the fence farther away from the cliff.

I have seen first-hand and heard testimonies that faithful church members who quit drinking got back to their "works of darkness" (drinking beer with former, unsaved friends beside the street, with matching videoke and worldly singing) after hearing their pastor teach "moderation". I remember a pastor's kid (a girl) saying "God bless" as she stumbled home after drinking pomelo gin "moderately".

In this confused world, while I know I have liberty in Christ and all things are lawful unto me, I believe all things are not expedient. I will take heed lest I fall, and not condemn myself in the thing which I "alloweth". If my pastoral-liberty-drink would make my weak-brother-drunkard to offend, I would drink no wine while the world standeth. (Biblestudent Paraphrase Version 2008)

I've heard some of my Bible teachers emphasize that there is no total abstinence of wine in the Bible. I believe that. I've also seen "big things" come from "small things", and I read in the Bible to be careful of condemning oneself with what he allows. I'll do my best to do that! God bless us all!

Biblestudent

[George]

Amen brother Sammy!

I was saved in October of 1958 and have never been "drunk" since then. From 1958 until 1963 I avoided drinking "alcoholic beverages", but would on very rare occasions have a beer with some of my island friends (in order to not "offend"). In 1963 I came to the personal conviction that, although I didn't believe it was a sin for me to have a beer or a glass of wine, I would no longer "imbibe" in any alcoholic beverages, in order to avoid all "appearance of evil" and causing someone to "stumble". I have been a "teetotaler" ever since, but do not think that it makes me any more "spiritual" than any other Christian.

We should not confuse "personal convictions" with clear Bible precepts and commands. For instance - my wife & I:

• Do not drink any "alcoholic beverages" - but I do not condemn those Christians that have a glass of wine with their meal, although I firmly believe that "moderation" is the key here. (Although if asked - I highly recommend total "abstinence" - in order to avoid the appearance of evil and not give occasion to stumble others)

• Have not celebrated Christmas since 1969 - but I do not condemn or even criticize those Christians that do. (Although if asked - I will tell them that the Lord Jesus Christ was definitely not born on the 25th. of December)

• Homeschooled all seven of our children from 1973 up to the late 1990's - but do not condemn or criticize those Christians that send their children to the government schools. (Although if asked - we recommend against sending Christian children to Humanists for instruction & training)

You will notice that my wife and I came to these "personal convictions" over a period of time. No one "forced" them on us - we embraced each one (and others) after personal study and being personally convicted by the Holy Spirit about these and other issues.

Thanks again for you comments and the Scriptures. It's obvious from just a cursory examination of the Scriptures that the word "wine" in the Bible can mean a variety of things and we should be careful not to put "private spin" on the word in order to enforce a "personal conviction".

[stephanos]

I'm curious why it is a sin for Jesus to drink a little wine (with alcohol in it)?

7:33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.

7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

I imagine some of you will say "well Jesus was drinking grape juice and they mistakenly thought he was boozing" but I just don't buy this approach. Perhaps my thinking isn't within the correct context of this passage, but it doesn't appear so. Also I think this passage clearly demonstrates that a winebibber isn't just anyone that has a drink, but is to wine as eating is to glutonny.

Much Love in Christ Jesus,
Stephen

EDIT: btw, we Mennonite generally don't involve ourselves with wine and strong drink simply because of the dangers involved. I used to drink myself and can attest to the dangers that I experienced. I think it is wise to err on the side of caution with alcohol.

[chette777]

Apart from our traditions which calls drinking a sin but the Bible never mentions the sin of drinking. The Bible call the sin the sin of drunkeness, this would be an excess of wine.

sin of smoking is also never found in the Bible. but it would have to be a stewardship issue. so in that sence it is a sin to abuse your body with tobacco.

In North Carolina many Baptist churches there have congregations that smoke. they are tobacco growers.

But I wonder how many corn growers in Iowa drink whiskey or barley growers in Nebraska drink Beer and attend church?

[peopleoftheway]

When I was not on the right path, I drank. I was depressed, life was not a bed of roses. I knew what I was doing was wrong in the eyes of the LORD but I still rebelled against that feeling and drank more. Now I, having been in the darkest depths of despair through alcohol and other substances could feel the change in personality starting even after 1 or 2 beers and then,a progression onto a need for other stronger drinks.
Wine is a Mocker yes, its the devil Mocking your weakness
Strong Drink is raging yes, it makes a normally peaceful person aggressive.
Now when I think back to those hazy days and look at a bar, I see familiar "Spirits" and THANK THE LORD MY GOD that I am delivered and forgiven from that nightmare that is alcohol and strive through his Grace not to put those spirits into my Temple EVER again.
I beg the liberals, don't be liberal concerning booze. People say things they normally wouldn't say after 1 drink, do things they normally wouldn't do after 1 drink. If its not the "Buzz" that Christians are after then why drink at all?
Alcohol is a destroyer when consumed, I have felt it destroying me and watched it destroy others around me, its from the devil. And for those that say, "well, its good in moderation for my heart", put the glass down and go for a 10 min walk, thats even better for you heart.

In My Saviour's name, The LORD Jesus Christ

[Cody1611]

Amen, Brother!

[Josh]

Amen! Great post!

[chette777]

there are however Biblical guidlines for drinking. the Bible says wine is to be given those with a heavy heart and strong drink to those who are dying.

God never says the sin is drinking, again it is drunkeness for if drinking were a sin and look at this verse if God were against the drinking he would be wrong to say this to Israel, And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strongdrink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household, Duet. 14:26.

Great to hear you are set free fro the sin of drukeness and given your background even one drink would be to much for your adictive personality. most of us have that problem and it is best we don't drink at all. My testamony of coming out of drug addiction and alcoholism points only one sorce of my deliverance and that is my Lord Jesus Christ.and he drank wine ocasionally

[pbiwolski]

Chette, you're stretching it pretty far on that one.

Your quote from Prov. 31 puts the emphasis on the wrong fellow.

4. It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:
5. Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.
6. Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
7. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

If you're going to make any application to today from this then you'd have to say that the drinking is for the LOST man and not the saved. No born again Christian is poor in Christ Jesus, etc...

Rev. 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Worse yet, you of all people using a verse in Deut. (considering its context fully) to make allowance for the sin of drinking booze today.

You're talking about (1) Jews (2) in their land (3) bringing a special offering (4) to special place (5) at a special time - yearly, and then (6) preforming a special ceremony before the Lord.

If you can get that its alright for a Christian to consume alcohol out of that, you're streeeeeeeeeeeeeeetching it!