[Diligent]

I think an understanding of what vengence actually is might be helpful. I wrote a short essay related to this last year: http://www.brandonstaggs.com/2007/07...nse-vengeance/

My essay doesn't have anything to do with war, but I do try to show what vengeance is. The Old Testament gives us a very, very clear explanation of what is and is not vengeance.

As for war: God has said that he will call nations to war. The New Testament also clearly requires us to be in subjection to our government, and when our government calls us to war, we have to obey unless there is something exactly contrary to God's word about what we are being told to do.

I think volunteering to join the military is an entirely personal matter and between a man and God; none of my business.

The New Testament records Christ's first dealings with a centurion in Matthew 8. Note that this man was more faithful in one way than Christ's own disciples were! Search the NT for "centurion." It's an enlightening study and no Christian has any basis for having anything except respect for honest military men doing service. (I also can not find any reference in the NT were a military man is told to quit his service because it is incompatible with Christian living.)

DILIGENT

Thanks for coming back to this thread. I missed your input.
I'm going to have to read your article later. It's too late now but I'll get to it tomorrow.
With that said I'll only address a couple of your points as I don't have your complete view (without reading the article, that is).

"As for war: God has said that he will call nations to war."

I agree, but that doesn't mean we Christians need to be a part of it. If nations wish to wage war (as they have) then so be it, but I don't have to agree or support war efforts. Neither in word nor deed.
I'm not just talking about my democratic freedom but rather my Christian obligation, as I see it.

"The New Testament also clearly requires us to be in subjection to our government, and when our government calls us to war, we have to obey unless there is something exactly contrary to God's word about what we are being told to do."

I guess here is the main point we disagree on.
Your statement "...we have to obey unless there is something exactly contrary to God's word about what we are being told to do" seems to hold the most tension as I feel that the destruction of another human being (made in the image and likeness of our Savior) is beyond the scope and reason of any Christian.

"(I also can not find any reference in the NT were a military man is told to quit his service because it is incompatible with Christian living.)"

True statement. However, I believe with everything else that Jesus, Paul, John, et al told us about loving our neighbor and being kind to those who persecute us, I find it difficult to hold to the view that because the government said it's ok to kill them, then it must be so.

Folks, I'm going to bow out of this discussion because I feel like I'm simply repeating myself at this point.
I didn't mean to offend anyone so if I did, please accept my apology and forgive me. I simply responded to a question with, what I believed to be, the correct understanding of scripture.

Should anyone want to continue this discussion with me I would, provided they read the entire thread (only so I don't sound like a broken record!) otherwise, God bless you all.

I look forward to "meeting" with you all again on different threads where I'm sure we'll find we actually agree more (on doctrinal and theological issues) than disagree.

***SPOT ON!!! Jesus was not a pacifist, as you said. Pacifism requires activism and Jesus did not come to Earth to be an activist. However, he did preach non retribution and I don't think it would be fair to build an arguement for carrying swords (or whatever your weapon of choice) based on one verse. Especially since several verses later he corrects Peter for using the very sword He told them to carry. Another Gospel says He told him to put away his sword because the one who lives by it, dies by it.


There are obviously times when being armed is Biblicaly OK...otherwise Christ would not have given the instruction to by swords.

Christs' correction of Peter's use of his sword is a result of Peter's untimely mis-use of the weapon..Joh 18:11 "Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it? "

Christ told Peter to put his sword back into its sheath...not to throw it away.
The message here is clearly that the carrying of weapons is fine, but they must not be misused.

As for Christians being involved in war....in 1917-18, God used General Allenbie, a Bible thumping Christian, and the Australian Light Horse, along with New Zealanders and a British army, to clear the promised land of the Muslim Turk occupiers. this campaign cleared the way for the fullfilment of Bible prophecy, the return of the Jews to the promised land.
Diary entries from the soldiers indicate that they were very aware of "walking in the footsteps of Jesus" as they liberated the many towns and cities all the way to Jerusalem.

If every Christian in Allenbies army stayed home because they didnt think war was a valid Christian endevour, Israel would not exist today as a towering example of the truth of Gods word and the validity of his promises.

Fundy

[stephanos]

There is only one King us Anabaptists would ever go to war for, and He has not returned as of yet, although we await Him. The position that most baptists take is the very one that prevents me from joining any of their churches. I will not, and cannot condone the practice of Christians directly or indirectly taking human life. I've seen those try to reason around the scriptures to promote this sort of thing, but they prove nothing, only that there still are parts of the scriptures that they are not yet willing to accept. We Anabaptists have shed much blood solely on this one issue, and will unapoligetically continue to stand against taking human life. I love you baptists and will continue to seek your fellowship, but I stand firmly against you on this one belief. Know that I like my fellows would gladly die than use the sword against another man.

Much Love in Christ,
Stephen

[Paladin54]

Hi Stephen,
and I love you Anabaptists, and seek your fellowship. On this one doctrine of faith, I have been swayed often, so much so that I refuse to correct others, only ask why they say that. I am NOT trying to pin you down and especially not argue, but how do you take
Jeremiah 48:10? The context does not help me.

"Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood."

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by Paladin54

Hi Stephen,
and I love you Anabaptists, and seek your fellowship. On this one doctrine of faith, I have been swayed often, so much so that I refuse to correct others, only ask why they say that. I am NOT trying to pin you down and especially not argue, but how do you take
Jeremiah 48:10? The context does not help me.

"Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood."

I guess (without looking to deeply into that verse) one would truly be cursed if he kept back his sword from blood when the Lord clearly commanded him to not do so.

I know there are verses in the bible that speak of times the Lord called the people of Israel to go to war against the enemies of their nation, however I cannot in good faith seek out Scriptures that support my being zealous of a particular nation that I live in. I do not believe the nation I live has good intentions, despite the fact that God uses this nation. What I do believe is that my Master doesn't wish that I resist evil (this includes being a pacifist, which is resistance. We, the Anabaptists, are non-violent and non-resistant). I just think that the Masters commandments in regards to this are clear. Perhaps I'm in error in this, but my spirit does not attest to this.

Much Love in Christ,
Stephen

[Paladin54]

From a Non-resistant point of iew, what do you think of the modern nation of Israel?
Does it have any right to exist? Can the nation (biblically) fight to defend themselves.?

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by Paladin54

From a Non-resistant point of iew, what do you think of the modern nation of Israel?
Does it have any right to exist? Can the nation (biblically) fight to defend themselves.?

I believe that God has put people in authority of different nations to serve His purpose. I do not get involved with telling them how to do their job, and I don't think it is good for them to tell me how to serve His purpose as a disciple of Jesus Christ. I pray for Israel, and for the leaders of that state/nation. I'm not sure if there is much more I can do in good faith.

Much Love in Christ,
Stephen

[PB1789]

Originally Posted by Paladin54

Can it be right for Christians to ever go to war? If so, under what circumstances? If not, why not? What does the Bible, which is superior to human reasoning, say on this matter?

A.) Yes.

B.) "Diligent" has given you many verses from the Word of God. There are many verses to read...open a concordance and dig in. Check out this one in Deut. 20:8---The Lord knows some are cowards, so the Officers were to send them home. Cowards on the Line are a bad influence.

C.) Pacifists always go to verses about inter-personal relationships, while ignoring the plain statements from the Written Word concerning war. As I said on another thread (responding to an America-loathing pacifist), NO place did Christ Jesus ever tell Soldiers to quit being soldiers, but instead He told them to do their jobs honestly.

D.) Read some of these links and I would suggest that you rent/borrow a movie called "Gods and Generals". It has much footage of Lt. Gen. T.L."Stonewall" Jackson and his wife discussing a passage they had read in Ist Cor., before he had to head out. There is an amazing amount of Christianity that was vibrant during the War between the States. There was a Man who was an Ordained Bishop and a General. (Not a Chaplain btw). Much of this has been swept-under-the-rug by the History revisors. I will also show a couple of links to and about a Soldier of the "Theban Legion" of the Roman Empire. His name was Maurice and his unit was comprised of Christians! Also check out a publisher called "Sprinkle Pubs." They carry many books mentioned below.

http://www.infantryassn.com/awards.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Saint_Maurice (Read the Bio links)

The Weather Prayer and some details from the Chaplain:

http://www.pattonhq.com/prayer.html

http://www.pattonhq.com/textfiles/psalms.html Psalm 63

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/g/h/t/ghtwpray.htm Read the words.

Some book titles: "Sprinkle Publications and Gano Books* carries most of them. * Gano is the anglicanized name of Gen. George Washington's Chaplain.

"Christ in the Camp" ---J.William Jones ISBN-1-59442-0629

"A Constitutional view of the War between the States" Alexander Stephens ISBN-1-59442-067-X

"The Great Revival in the Southern Armies" W.W. Bennett ISBN-1-59442-050-5

"Life and Campaigns of Lt.Gen. T.J."Stonewall" Jackson by Robert Lewis Dabney (his chaplain and a Theologian) ISBN-1-59442-051-3

[Paladin54]

Thanks PB, I will be sure to check those out. Stonewall is my hero, but then that will open more questions, regarding rebellion, I guess that will wait for another day, after war. Thanks again. I'll get back to you when I'm done.