Originally Posted by pbiwolski

...or, as you say, you can just believe it, and it's all okay! Now you've opened the door to believe whatever you want to believe from scripture.

But then this would go against what I previously quoted,

"But you must know that He won't lead you contrary to the perimeters (doctrine) that He has already established for you and me today."

You had better establish the doctrine that applies to you today, before you choose what you believe.

I believe that if a man wants to follow Jesus and the Holy Spirit to rightly divide His word, then we ought to honor that man, not condemn him for going against what we say. We are just mere men.

Follow the ways of man (including ourselves) is the only way to open that door. Jesus is the Good Shepherd and will never lead us into that trap. Praise our Lord Jesus Christ and God our Father for the desires He gives.

[Diligent]

We have a lot of words written to us and a lot to figure out on our own through God's word. We can easily listen to preachers and teachers of today, but not a one of them walked with Jesus and has a REAL clue.

What's the Bible for, then? The disciples sure seemed to be "lacking clues"

Luke 24:11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.

That's the 11 disbelieving the resurrection! So much for "walking with Jesus" (in a literal fashion) having anything to do with understanding the Gospel of Grace!

As I read it even Paul had problems with Peter and James (Galatians 2) and their doctrine.

Yes, Paul was right, Peter was having a hard time adjusting to the changes. You have to get this straight or Scripture will only confuse you.

2 Timothy 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

Unless you want to rip Paul's epistles out of the Bible, you have to consider what he says before you consider the rest. There are no contradictions. There are divisions to be made for understanding.

Do you establish doctrine for me - or does God?

The Bible does that:

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Nobody's experience trumps Scripture. Ever.

If you go back and read my post and your post you will see we are in complete agreement with each other. Doctrine is established by God and His word - not by men with opinions and seminary degrees. I pray that when you go to church you are learning "thus saith the Lord" and not "thus saith Pastor so-and-so". You best know what God is saying to YOU just in case the Pastor is wrong with his interpretation of God's word. God will also give an individual a mission, that lines up with the word of God, and many will think "he is foolish for stepping out in faith to believe God told him to do that"

I meant to edit my post and put "walking with Jesus on this earth" The only way to know what truly went on was to be there. All we can do now is read what was written about it and try to fill in the blanks. There is a lot we don't know and won't know until we see Jesus face to face. In the mean time we are to take what is written, believe it by faith (all of it), take the gospel to the world and make disciples (with signs following after a separate infilling of the Holy Spirit) baptizing folks in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. They will know we are His disciples by the love we have for each other (He and I are still waiting for that one).

In Christ

[chette777]

[QUOTE=martydavis;5859] Doctrine is established by MEN[QUOTE]

Marty,

Paul taught more on Doctrine than any other person. Doctrine is established by the Holy Spirit not men. It is when men want to change sound doctrine they twist it to their own destruction.

there are plenty of established Doctrine for you today in the Bible. a rule of thumb is if Moses, Jesus, apostles or angel teaches something and it agrees with the writtings of Paul it is a doctrine for today.

you will notice that Paul restates the ten commandments in a much different way than Moses gave them to Israel. and Jesus give Kingdom rules that are much more harder than the Law. now we have the same priciples of law (but not is strict obedience) under the Age of Gods full Grace alone. not partial grace as under law.

Partial grace is that God saved by grace but they had to do a work to prove thier faith was true in their hearts. ie a sacrifices for sin when done in faith and were true to heart were spirtually acceptable. sacrifices done just from obedience but no heart in it. was not acceptable but only God knew them even though they looked good on the outside. Jesus called them white washed tombs.

Moses said eye for an eye, Jesus said love thy enemy, Paul said pray for your enemy and also to live peacably withall men if posible with you. Moses taugh love your neighbor as your self, Jesus taught Love God with all. . . and the second commandment is liken unto it Love your neighbor, Paul teaches that you love ye one another speaking to Christians only.

if something Paul teaches does not agree with any Aopostle or Jesus or any other it is not a Doctrine for today. However a spiritual truth may be gleened from it for devotional or inspiration but it is not a Doctrine. applications for life can be found through out the Bible. but they are not Doctrines. this is where the confusion usually is because you must rightly divide at this points. to establish teh correct strong doctrine and the life application which may or may not be a doctrine.

such as tounges is proof that a men is filled withthe Holy Ghost. it is a wrong teaching that has no foundation is the Bible. it has been established by some groups to be a Doctrine but it is not. there is no agreement of scripture to support it. so what is it. it is clearly a twisting of the word of God.

How about the SDA teaching that everyone should worship on the Sabbath only. but they disregard the teaching of Paul that we are not to look down on or dispise those who would have another day of worship or everyday alike, or eat meat. their teaching that one should eat vegies only is not base on the word either. so what is it? Wrong division and taking scriptures for someone else at another time and forcing it on everyone else. and according to them if you worship on Sunday (or any other day) you have the Mark of the Beast. you see they fail to divide and they establish things that are not doctrines as doctrines.

like most who do these things they have something other than the Bible to give them the authority not to obey God. A special prophet, or revelation, or a word of wisdom (they claim). but it never agrees with the word which is theonly source we have to establish Doctrine.

Chette777, I agree with you on most points. There maybe just small points that we struggle with. My problem with the whole "tongues" thing is Baptist doctrine is just about the only strong hold against speaking in tongues right up until it happens to "one of y'all". Then they are ostrisised and told they didn't really experience what they said they experienced. Now a whole bunch of us Charismatic/pentecostal types can't be ALL wrong (and there are a BUNCH of us). Especially when it draws us closer to Jesus, gives us POWER to fight the spiritual warfare we face, we see miracles happen right before our eyes and we have boldness to witness out on the streets (with signs following). I just did a study starting with 1 Corinthians 12:1 ending with 1 Corinthians 14:40 and it ended with Paul telling us "Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophecy, and FORBID NOT to speak with tongues" - who is right - the Baptists (and the other denominations that don't believe) or Paul? I say listen to Paul (who re-emphasized what Mark wrote that Jesus said in Mark 16:17-18). I really do care what y'all are learning about the word of God and want only the will of the Father in your lives. All I ask is that you pray that your eyes will be opened to the truth and not walk only in the "doctrine of men" of the Baptist denomination (or what ever denomination that hands you white-out at the door). I pray for the same thing - DAILY - and God just keeps telling me to have faith as a mustard seed and believe that GREATER works than these shall (I) do because (Jesus) goes to the Father (John 14:12).

I noticed I put "doctrine is established by men" and then turned around and put "doctrine is established by God and His word". I can't have it both ways now can I? I guess what I'm trying to say is we are no longer ONE body of Christ and one church, but that men have dissected the doctrines established by God and His word and has spread it amongst all the denominations using only what they want to believe of it causing us to not be in unity. I grieve and can't wait until Jesus comes back when it will no longer be an issue and we can all be one in Christ. "On earth as it is in Heaven" was Jesus' prayer as an example to us - we've not been praying that from the way it looks.

[chette777]

Marty,

th rule of thumb to see the established doctrines is to look for the teachigs of Jesus, the Apostles or Angels that agree with Pauls teachings. some things are restated differently like the the ten commandments (that is all but one, the sabbath).

you would see the restated Ten commandments are much different and require only faith to follow them. no obligatin or promise is attached to them.

Moses taugth and eye for an ey, Jesus taught love thy enemy, Paul teaches pray for your Enemy and if it is at all possible as it layeth with thee live peacably with all men.

the tongues doctrine is very clearly stated in Paul's writing to the Corinthians. tongues must have and interpretation for the church. an unknown tongue are not to be spoken in the church and had never before existed before the corinthian church started using it. its first and only usages are found only in 1Cor 14.

All tongues in Acts were not interpreted but understood by the hearers. that tongue needed no interpretation. All uses of those tongues glorified or magnified the person and works of God. ans in Acts 8 we shold never read into the scripture they spoke in tongues because it is not say they did(some say they did). so I would assume tongues would do the same today. tongues never was used to reveal things, nor for confession of sin, or to give prophecy.

the unknown tongue being spoken in many churches today since the early 1900's starting in Las Angeles (don't believe any books written by men since 1970's saying that tongues has always been spoken. becuase it is a lie). the unknown tongue spoken in churches is disobedience to the word of God as found in 1Cor14. no one claiming to speak in an unknown tongue could not be filed with the Holy ghost.

the gift was to profit withll. it was to benefit all who heard it if it had an interpretation. never has anyone seen that in action. often people say mumbo gumbo and interpret it but what they interpret is found in the word of God, or it is some kind of command. but again a command could not be profitable to all. it may not be applicable to all. that is why doctrine must be upheld over tongue freedom.

the Baptist came up with the doctrine that 1Cor13:8 to the end, wasmeant that the perfect to come was the Bible. butthat would be poor exegesis. the context speaks of a person whom we would see face to face. The perfect to come is Jesus.

so to ends of the church have opposing Doctrine on the same issue. both are extreme veiws and the church needs one of balance.

I hope that helps a little.

All I can add as I end this thread is - If you have never experienced the infilling of the Holy Spirit and His POWER with the evidence of speaking in tongues then all you can do is look for some sort of vague scripture to back up your argument that it has ended, repeat the words of others that have never experienced it and said it has ended, and then walk away empty.

When God uses men of faith to heal the sick and lame all you can do is scoff, accuse them of using demonic power in the name of Jesus and then go back to your churches not believing that God is still the same today as He was back then and calling it a day. Yep, He closed it out with the Apostles, left us with a King James Bible and said "deal with it by yourselves".

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by martydavis

All I can add as I end this thread is - If you have never experienced the infilling of the Holy Spirit and His POWER with the evidence of speaking in tongues then all you can do is look for some sort of vague scripture to back up your argument that it has ended, repeat the words of others that have never experienced it and said it has ended, and then walk away empty.

Your experience is completely and totally irrelevant when you are dealing with other people. Since the Bible tells us:

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

It would be foolish for any of us to accept that an experience of signs and wonders (especially when they do not line up with Scriptural patterns) is de-facto proof of anything. Since the return of Christ for the Rapture is imminent, we should adopt that position that signs and wonders are "lying," not the other way around. Even the power to raise the dead will be a lying sign (Revelation 13:3), so don't be surprised that many of us are suspicious first of these claims. God is done giving signs to the Church; the just are to walk by the faith of Christ, not by sight. Attempts to convince people with signs and wonders is walking by sight, not faith. In the Bible, signs are always given to people who lack faith -- even Moses was given signs because of his lack of faith. A reliance on signs and wonders is a sign of spiritual weakness and a desire to walk by sight, not faith.

[chette777]

Marty,

I have been in the ministry for many years. I have seen demons that many a white man has never experienced. I have seen healings through prayer but not one that was instantanious. I would never scoff at a true instantanious healing God can do that.

But one thing I know for sure is this. God will never give you an experieince that would go against his word. or cause you to be in disobedience to it. it is not about limitiing God with our Idea it is God giving us clear information on how to tell if it is of Him or his Enemy. God will never go against his word or it would make him a hyposcrate or a liar. that is where Brandon is correct in the last days we need to be careful not to jump onjust because it happened because our enemy the devil walks around as a roaring lion seeking whm he may devour. Satan will keep many in the the experiencial mode instead of them growing Spiritually. they are not lost just kept as babes in Christ and Carnal..Even Paul said the Corithians had all the gifts yet were carnal babes in Christ.

So if you spoke in an unkown tongue it is between God and you and glory be to God for that. But it should never be spoken in the church assemblies or you will be in disobedience to Gods word (that should be your rule nothe other way around). if you do speak it must have an interpretation so all can profit from it. if not ok just keep it to yourself and God as Paul said and never do it again in teh assembly.

I have the in filling of the Holy Ghost. sometimes I have emotional feelings other times nothing. Sometimes I witness and share Gods word for hours and afterards wonder what had happened and where came form. Because it was not of me but og God via the Holy Ghost.

blessings bro just keep growing in Christs' image