[Luke]

I am going to take a note out of George's book.

1st post - CRITICISM
2nd post - CRITICISM

Who are you? Why should anyone listen to you. We don't know you, your testimony, or anything else about you. Where are you from? How did you find this place? Do you believe the KJB is the final authority and infallible etc.

As for the man you speak of, well, I don't know the whole story, only the short paragraph you have given me, which sounds like a sermon illustration of Ray Comfort's or some other lordship salvation preacher.

Furthermore, if that is true, and I have no reason to doubt that... I wonder what is missing from the story... why does this guy not go to church. Why does he go out and get drunk? And more importantly, why are you telling him he is lost because he sins. What are you expecting him to do? Look up to you and see a sinless man?

2Co 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.


This doesn't have to do with salvation. He already spent the entire first book and second book telling them everything that is wrong with the church, and he is warning them that if he comes and they are acting carnal still, well, he ain't going to be happy.

You quoted Acts 11:18 - why? It has the word repent in it, but it isn't relevant to what I said...

What do I care what Steven Anderson says. He isn't my pastor. He pastors some little church in Arizona. I don't even live in the same country. If he wasn't on youtube every other day complaining about his beating, noone would have heard of him. Same as Paul Washer, except washer seems to be more humble than to put videos of himself online. A bunch of his fans do it for him instead.

Seeing as your posts don't even address the actual thread (which was about tracts, not altar calls, prayers, carnal christianity or even steven anderson), one could come to the conclusion that you are here pushing your agenda!

And what agenda would that be?

The same one that I have been warning people about for about two years. That Ray Comfort and Paul Washer have begun a "revival" that spells the end of the end. That you define repentance by your own experience instead of what the Bible says.

I preach repentance. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. That's repentance right there. Turning to Jesus Christ. It's all an unsaved man can do. He can't stop sinning. He doesn't even want to stop.

Here is the fulfillment of Luke 24:47

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

That's not the gospel.

The gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:3-4


Tandy, there is no such thing as saving faith. The term occurs not once in the entire Bible. Faith is the channel by which God's grace is given to us. Faith is the means by which we receive salvation from God. But the OBJECT of faith is what saves. Jesus Christ is the object of faith. Faith in itself is not saving unless it is placed in Jesus. It's the object of the faith, not the quality.

Tandy - rather than joinin up and expecting everyone to just change because you say so, why don't you tell us about yourself? Are you a Bible believer? Are you a calvinist? Are you dispensational or reformed? Where are you from? How/when were you saved if you remember?

[KingSolomon1611]

Originally Posted by Vendetta Ride

The site to which you referred is very dangerous, and full of erroneous teaching and conspiracy-mongering. ..that he slanders some very valiant servants of God

For example? What error?

Conspiracy mongoring? Does it pose legitimate questions?

Don't fall into that neo-con mass media hype about anyone who believes in conspiracies is nuts. Remember we believe that the devil is out to get us all and he runs and owns the governments of the world and wants to slaughter billions.

"very valiant servants of God" No one is above scrutiny when it comes the the word of God...especially good, godly, dedicated, separated so on and so forth. This is a forum for Bible believers. Let us lay all 52 cards face up. I personally have detested that little stupid phrase on the last page of chick tracts. I'm glad to see someone else reads what they hand out and weighs it against the word.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by tandy1650

When you try to divorce repentance from sin you are rejecting scripture. The problem with the Church of Christ is they reverse the God given order of repentance and faith and make salvation a process. They teach:

1. Believe
2. Repent
3. Confess
4. Be baptized
In other words just believe and then start working your way to heaven.

Tandi, we do what?

Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

"In other words just believe and then start working your way to heaven."

We do what?

Grace and peace sister, you got a long row to hoe.

Tony

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

Tandi, we do what?

Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

"In other words just believe and then start working your way to heaven."

We do what?

Grace and peace sister, you got a long row to hoe.

Tony

Brother, that is the best piece of selectively quoting someone I have ever seen. I believe just the opposite of what the Church of Christ teaches. The difference between a lost Campbellite and a Christian who has been saved by the grace of God is a Campbellite tries to live right in order to be saved. A Christian tries to live right as a result of salvation! If I did not make that clear I apologize. Christ didn't die for your unbelief. He died for your sins!

1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

A man in some remote jungle that has never heard the gospel does not go to hell because of "unbelief." He goes to hell because he is an adulterer, murderer, thief, liar etc. He will be judged according to the deeds he as done in the flesh (Romans 2:3-6).

The answer to the sin problem is exactly what Jesus said. "Repent ye, and believe the gospel" (Mark 1:15). I preach the same message the apostle Paul did.

Act 20:19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
Act 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
Act 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Originally Posted by Luke

As for the man you speak of, well, I don't know the whole story, only the short paragraph you have given me, which sounds like a sermon illustration of Ray Comfort's or some other lordship salvation preacher.
Nonsense. Someone left a Chick track "This was your life" in a flower pot at a grocery store I was working in in 1971. God used that track to bring me under Holy Ghost conviction. There is no lordship salvation in that track! It teaches repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. Period.

Furthermore, if that is true, and I have no reason to doubt that... I wonder what is missing from the story... why does this guy not go to church. Why does he go out and get drunk? And more importantly, why are you telling him he is lost because he sins. What are you expecting him to do? Look up to you and see a sinless man?

He goes out and gets drunk because he is a lost sinner in need of salvation. He is religious but lost.

2Co 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.


This doesn't have to do with salvation. He already spent the entire first book and second book telling them everything that is wrong with the church, and he is warning them that if he comes and they are acting carnal still, well, he ain't going to be happy.

Hogwash. Paul told them to examine themselves as to whether they were in the faith except they be reprobates.

You quoted Acts 11:18 - why? It has the word repent in it, but it isn't relevant to what I said...

God grants Gentiles repentance unto life. Repentance comes before salvation not after like the Campbellites teach.

Seeing as your posts don't even address the actual thread (which was about tracts, not altar calls, prayers, carnal christianity or even steven anderson), one could come to the conclusion that you are here pushing your agenda!
I mentioned altar calls and prayers because many people (myself included for several years) believe that if they walk down an aisle and say a prayer after some preacher they will be saved. Many have never been converted and their hearts are just as wicked as the Pharisees.

I preach repentance. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. That's repentance right there. Turning to Jesus Christ. It's all an unsaved man can do. He can't stop sinning. He doesn't even want to stop.
Any man who has no desire to turn to God from what he knows is wrong has never been convicted by the Holy Spirit. It is with the heart belief that saves not getting someone to say a prayer and being religious.

Here is the fulfillment of Luke 24:47

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Nonsense. Jesus declared the gospel right there in verse 46 in plain King James English. You simply don't wish to believe it. “Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: “ And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Tandy, there is no such thing as saving faith. The term occurs not once in the entire Bible. Faith is the channel by which God's grace is given to us. Faith is the means by which we receive salvation from God. But the OBJECT of faith is what saves. Jesus Christ is the object of faith. Faith in itself is not saving unless it is placed in Jesus. It's the object of the faith, not the quality.

Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

[George]

Originally Posted by tandy1650

"When you try to divorce repentance from sin you are rejecting scripture. The problem with the Church of Christ is they reverse the God given order of repentance and faith and make salvation a process. They teach:

1. Believe
2. Repent
3. Confess
4. Be baptized
In other words just believe and then start working your way to heaven.

Baptists have always taught that repentance comes before faith. Repentance will bring about a change of heart and attitude toward their sin. They will see themselves guilty before God and in need of salvation. There will be a desire to forsake the sin and turn to God.

Romans 10:10 clearly states that "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Walking down to an altar and praying a prayer after someone will not hack it. I had a head belief for several years but was nothing but a self righteous and lost church member ."

Aloha Tandy 1650,

Let's start over - shall we? First off, as brother Luke has said, we know nothing about you. I'm not even sure whether you are a man or a woman. It would be nice to know a little bit about the person we are speaking with.

If you are a woman, I can understand your reluctance to give out much information about yourself, considering how perverse the "net" is, but I think it would be appropriate for you to give at least a little information about yourself rather than just arrive here and jump into a controversy.

I also understand your concern about what some call - "easy believism", however, just because we have a "concern" about the shallow way that salvation is presented in some circles, we cannot (must not) "change" what God has written concerning salvation in order to insure that no "abuse" occurs concerning it.

The basic prerequisite to receiving God's gift of eternal salvation is we must: . . . . "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved," .... [Acts 16:31]

Belief is the "KEY" that makes it possible to become a son of God: John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

We have to be careful that we don't add "repentance" to the Gospel:

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

I "think" that you and I are not very far apart in our "belief" (I too believe that belief is a sole operation and function of the heart), I just think you you must be extremely careful in regards to the requirement that there must always be "repentance" BEFORE salvation. When a child of 8, or 9, or 10, or 11 believes "on the Lord Jesus Christ", what sins do they have to "repent" of?

There are a lot of Threads & Posts dealing with this subject on this Forum. I would suggest you use the "SEARCH" function on the Forum and check out some of the Posts. In addition I have a 250 page study on the heart of man on my web page - you might want to check it out, to see if we are in agreement or not.

We are a pretty friendly bunch here, EXCEPT when it comes to Bible correctors, deniers, or heretics (and modern "Christianity" is full of them).

Why don't we start over - introduce yourself and relax: We don't bite, although occasionally I have been known to BARK!

Originally Posted by George

Aloha Tandy 1650,

Let's start over - shall we? First off, as brother Luke has said, we know nothing about you. I'm not even sure whether you are a man or a woman. It would be nice to know a little bit about the person we are speaking with.

If you are a woman, I can understand your reluctance to give out much information about yourself, considering how perverse the "net" is, but I think it would be appropriate for you to give at least a little information about yourself rather than just arrive here and jump into a controversy.

I also understand your concern about what some call - "easy believism", however, just because we have a "concern" about the shallow way that salvation is presented in some circles, we cannot (must not) "change" what God has written concerning salvation in order to insure that no "abuse" occurs concerning it.

The basic prerequisite to receiving God's gift of eternal salvation is we must: . . . . "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved," .... [Acts 16:31]

Belief is the "KEY" that makes it possible to become a son of God: John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

We have to be careful that we don't add "repentance" to the Gospel:

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

I "think" that you and I are not very far apart in our "belief" (I too believe that belief is a sole operation and function of the heart), I just think you you must be extremely careful in regards to the requirement that there must always be "repentance" BEFORE salvation. When a child of 8, or 9, or 10, or 11 believes "on the Lord Jesus Christ", what sins do they have to "repent" of?

There are a lot of Threads & Posts dealing with this subject on this Forum. I would suggest you use the "SEARCH" function on the Forum and check out some of the Posts. In addition I have a 250 page study on the heart of man on my web page - you might want to check it out, to see if we are in agreement or not.

We are a pretty friendly bunch here, EXCEPT when it comes to Bible correctors, deniers, or heretics (and modern "Christianity" is full of them).

Why don't we start over - introduce yourself and relax: We don't bite, although occasionally I have been known to BARK!

Brother I am an ex-Marine who believes the word of God. I grew up in a Southern Baptist church in Morristown, TN. When I was ten years old at a Wednesday night service the preacher asked everyone who was saved to raise their hands. When he pointed down at me sitting on the front pew and asked if I was saved, I meekly shook my head no. At the end of the service he came down and took me to the altar and led me in a sinner's prayer and told me I was "saved." The only problem was, I was under no conviction, and the prayer didn't mean a thing. I believed in Jesus and that there was a heaven and a hell (so much that I trembled at the thought), but the only "assurance" I had came from the fact that I said a prayer and was a baptized member of a Baptist church.

A few years passed and I was constantly afraid of dying and remember one night during a thunder storm, great fear came upon me as I thought the trumpet might be blowing. I ran outside not knowing what to do. I continued to convince myself I was saved though because I "believed in Jesus." Everyone told me I was saved except the Holy Spirit!

When it came to lying and stealing, it didn't bother me and I had nothing but "religion" to comfort me. In 1971, while working at a grocery store, someone left a Chick tract entitled "This Was Your Life" in a flower pot. I took it home and after reading it, the Holy Spirit brought me under much conviction and I no longer tried to fool myself into thinking that I was saved. A week or two passed when after hearing a sermon by my pastor, I finally cried from my heart to the Lord to have mercy and save me for Jesus sake. There was a peace that passed over my soul that words can't describe and for the first time in my life I layed down in bed and wasn't afraid to meet God.

Only someone with an agenda (a repentantless gospel) would even imply that "This Was Your Life" teaches "lordship salvation" as portrayed by some extremists. Nowhere does the Bible teach that you must "repent of all your sins" but it does teach that if one comes to God for salvation there will be a desire to turn from sin and turn to Christ. That change of heart is the difference between a Christian and a lost religious man.

The apostle Paul said it plainly concerning those whose faith is only a mental assent and didn't get down to their heart.

Tit 1:16 They profess (just like the friend I work with) that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Regards.

[Winman]

I think the clearest teaching on repentance is Luke 13:1-4

Luke 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

I believe repent means to change your viewpoint or attitude. In Luke 13 we have some self-righteous people who assumed that because some people had been put to death by Pilate, that this was a clear indication that these people were exceedingly wicked sinners, and that God had brought about this circumstance to punish them.

But notice what Jesus says in vs. 2 "Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?"

So, what Jesus was doing is telling these self-righteous people that they need to change their viewpoint or attitude toward themselves and recognize that they too were sinners. Only when a person realizes they are a lost sinner will they come to Christ for forgiveness.

And it is the same in vs 4 "think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?"

Again, what Jesus is telling these people is they need to recognize their own sinfulness and realize they too were in danger of perishing.

And John the Baptist said the same.

Matt 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, 6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. 7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

First, notice vs. 5 says "confessing their sins"

This is repentance. It is a change of heart, a change of view or attitude toward one's self to admit and confess they are a sinner.

And if you've ever gone door to door trying to lead someone to Christ you know this is the most difficult thing to convince a person of, that they are a lost sinner. People will tell you over and over "I am a good person!" I have heard that many, many times. This is the change that first needs to occur, a person must realize they truly are a sinner and not a good person. This is repentance.

The Pharisees and Sadducees were known for their self-righteousness. What was their biggest criticism of Christ?

Matt 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?

You see, the Pharisees thought they were righteous. They did not consider themselves sinners in danger of Hell. They could see other's faults, but could not see their own.

And this is why John the Baptist asked, "O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?"

It was a very notable thing to see a Pharisee or Sadducee admit that they too were wicked sinners.

And there was another attitude that had to be changed. Some thought they were saved merely because they were the decendents of Abraham. Many Jews still believe this. And some folks believe they are saved simply because they belong to a certain church. But John the Baptist pointed out to them that simply being a decendent of Abraham did not assure salvation, and that God could raise up children unto Abraham of stones.

So, as was said by others, repentance means to turn from trusting in a person's own righteousness, or believeing that you are saved merely by ancestry or belonging to a particular church.

[George]

Aloha brother Tandy,

Thanks for your word of testimony, I'm now (more than ever) pretty sure that we are not very far apart on what we believe.

I too, have seen these "heavy handed" tactics from preachers. God blessed my wife and I with 7 children between 1962 & 1982, I never once "pressured" one of them to "get saved". I believe that the Holy Spirit must convict and convince (through the hearing of God's word) in order for someone to be genuinely saved.

On the Island of Kauai, we once had this preacher from Texas who came to our little Baptist church and at the end of one of the services he did practically the same thing (as what happened to you) to one of the neighbors girls (14-15 years old) that we would bring to the church services. He "cornered" her and pushed for a "decision".

That "preacher" left after a week of meetings, BUT, that girl NEVER went to church with us again! I vowed that I would NEVER do that to ANYONE, nor would I allow anyone that I labored with for the Lord do that either.

I could be wrong brother, but I believe that we are real close on what we believe what constitutes genuine salvation. if you can, and have a mind to, stick around - there are real fine folks on this Forum. Welcome.

[peopleoftheway]

Hi Brother, thank you for your testimony

Only someone with an agenda (a repentantless gospel) would even imply that "This Was Your Life" teaches "lordship salvation" as portrayed by some extremists. Nowhere does the Bible teach that you must "repent of all your sins" but it does teach that if one comes to God for salvation there will be a desire to turn from sin and turn to Christ. That change of heart is the difference between a Christian and a lost religious man.

We don't turn from sin to turn to Christ, we take the filthy rags that are our life and lay them at his feet at the cross and exclaim "I cannot deal with them lord I leave it all at your cross"
To turn from sin to turn to Christ is adding to salvation, we must take our sins TO Christ knowing full well we are dead in them for we have no power to turn from them or deal with them without him, once sins are forgiven and dealt with there will be a genuine repentance toward our sinful lives and we will strive to change those things by Gods grace and over time, not overnight. I understand to what you mean about those who fit into the "easy believism" category, but you have to be careful when and how you define "easy believism" Paul Washer, Ray Comfort, John Macarthur etc all teach that turning from sin must be done before we come to Christ.
If a man was living in sin with his Girlfriend and received a Gospel tract, or heard the word of God being preached and was convicted in his heart and knew he was dead in his sin without Christ as his personal Saviour, does that man need to first go home and sort out his living arrangements before Christ will accept him? NO of course not, that change comes after salvation
I will agree with you that simply "saying a prayer" but not believing in your heart you are a guilty sinner destined for an eternal hell does not save a man, but many do feel convicted of their sins in their hearts, but they may be simple unlearned people, they have no idea of how it all is supposed to work in a Church, a Pastor may tell them they need to say a prayer or follow an alter call, but if the first step toward Christ has been made in their hearts, they are saved

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.