[greenbear]

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

Brother, we are in agreement that yes, they are Tribulation doctrine, and clearly Peter and James writes to the Tribulation church in general while John writes specifically to the 144,000 in my view, but I see nothing transitional as the Rapture of the Church is not transitional but instantaneous. It's my view further that not only will the Rapture preceed the Tribulation, but that the Rapture of the church will cause and initiate the Tribulation.

Grace and peace Chette

Tony

"It's my view further that not only will the Rapture preceed the Tribulation, but that the Rapture of the church will cause and initiate the Tribulation."

Brother Tony, is your view that the Rapture will cause and initiate the tribulation based on the belief that the Tribulation must start when the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth or do you have other scriptural reasons, as well?

Jennifer

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Greektim

When you say the Rapture will "initiate the Tribulation" do you mean that it will begin the Trib? Like, trumpet blast and shout and translation of saints and boom the countdown of 7 years begins? Do you have a passage in mind that supports that? I often hear people say that but mostly b/c they suppose it to be true b/c the Rapture is Pre-Trib.

Also, when you say the "Tribulation church" are you referring to saints in the Trib? Or are you referring to another "church"? Or even an extension of the Raptured Church?

Just want to nail down you views before I start disputing some of your claims.

Tim, the Tribulation will have several elements to it, 2 of which are supernatural in nature while 4 will be "man-made":

1. Rapture of the Church: Supernatural in nature. 1/10 the living and 1/10 the dead will go in the Rapture. The sudden disappearance of 1/10 of 6 to 15 billion people(based on the time yet and population of the planet)will doubtlessly lead to the next 4 developments:
2. Social upheaval
3. Religious upheaval
4. Political upheaval
5. Economic upheaval
6. The pouring out onto the whole earth the Ten Plagues poured out on Egypt. The second supernatural occurrence.

John the Baptist and Jesus Christ's earthly ministries to Isaael were to, as Roman's 15:8 says, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers(Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) in fulfillment of:

Ex 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Isa 61:6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.
5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Even with the death of John the Baptist, the execution and resurrection of Christ, the kingdom of heaven message went forth through the Twelve Apostles with the continued consecration(water baptism, the Levitical washing of Lev 8)and then the sanctification with the Holy Spirit(in place of the oil, a type of the Holy Spirit), they went forth fulfilling this commandment to make a kingdom of priests of the whole nation of Israel, the point I am trying to show in the water baptism thread. If Peter were a member of this forum, there would be no water baptism thread, he would clear the matter in a heartbeat as he does in these two Scriptures:

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

So far, so good. Up to the stoning of Stephen we have the Messianic-Apostolic Church led by Peter and ministered to by Peter, James, and John. Stephen is killed and national Israel falls. Up to this time, as Paul states in Romans 11, the Gentiles are exalted by blessing Israel and Israel's rise. Paul is called out to minister the grace of God to the Gentiles(and Jews) apart from the works of the law and apart from prophecy. The Body of Christ made of Gentiles and Jews co-equal was hid in God from all the ages. What we were grafted onto is not fallen national Israel but this Messianic-Apostolic Church of Peter, James, and John. We have been exalted through their fall, that is the mystery and now there is no difference between us.

Cometh the Rapture...

1/10 the living(the Body), 1/10 the dead(the Body). In Israel are 7000 who have not "bowed the knee to Baal", these 7000 teach or form the core of the 144,000, the "Tribulation saints", who convert people worldwide under the "Great Commission" Christ gave, with signs and wonders following, per Mark 16.

The program that stopped at Acts 7 begins again, Peter was preaching Tribulation is coming in Acts 2 per Joel 2. We are NOW in a parenthetical age, the "Church Age", "the Pauline Dispensation Of Grace", "The Grace Age", whatever you want to call it.

Does that answer your initial questions or do I need to clarify?

Tim, I don't have any inquiries as to your motives for being in this forum, you are here and a member like me. As long as it's done decently, in order, to edification and without hard feelings and emotional discombobulations, feel free to dispute my teaching here all you want,

Grace and peace brother.

Tony

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by greenbear

"It's my view further that not only will the Rapture preceed the Tribulation, but that the Rapture of the church will cause and initiate the Tribulation."

Brother Tony, is your view that the Rapture will cause and initiate the tribulation based on the belief that the Tribulation must start when the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth or do you have other scriptural reasons, as well?

Jennifer

Psalms 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

Sister, I don;t mean to sound pedantic, the Holy Spirit, in the manner that He indwells us will go with us, but He will not be taken out of the earth any more than He was still here in the OT before and during the law. He will indwell people as He did in the OT but He will also leave if the works pointed out by Paul in Hebrews, by James, and John in his 3 little letters and Revelation are not performed. That's the point the people in this thread and most in the forum proper can't get or won't get, those who can't get the deep Pauline dispensational teaching. I'm making a point on this becasue they taught us in the Church Of Christ that because the sign gifts are not operative today the Holy Ghost is not in the "world" today. There is nowhere in the 3 heavens and one earth the Holy Spirit isn't. He just won't indwell in the same manner in the Tribulation, He can leave. Just as in the OT.

Judas performed the same miracles as the other 12 and lost Him. Saul had Him and lost Him. Samson had Him, lost Him, and then got Him back. David had Him and was terrified he would lose Him.

Ps 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

To the main body of your question, people say to me, will the Rapture precede the tribulation? As sure as night follows day, the Rapture will cause the Tribulation. When it's God's time, not ours, He will take the Church out. Millions of cars, planes, boats, no pilots, no drivers, Look at the economic impact 9/11 and the Towers being destroyed had, those were 3000 people. What happens when it's millions?

God will send a strong delusion that they will believe a lie. What if we go up as the flying saucers are coming down, and the world is told we were the evil of the world and now the space brothers did the world a favor?

Those four major man-made upheavals I cited to Tim, recovering from those will give rise to the position of the anti-Christ.

Jen, how many Catholics will be Raptured and how many left? Very few and a whole lot. They will side with Islam against Israel and that is when the 10 Plagues of Egypt will be repeated on a planetary scale because of the world's persecution of believing Israel, just as the Egyptians did.

History always repeats itself.

That's why I say, not only will the rapture be before the Tribulation, think of millions just disappearing in a nanosecond, it will be caused by the Rapture.

I hope this helps and enjoy talking with you

Grace and peace

Tony

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Strictly covenantal.

AMR

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion

Strictly covenantal.

AMR

Clarify please Mr. R.

Grace and peace

Tony

[Greektim]

Covenant Theology I believe.

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Originally Posted by Greektim

Covenant Theology I believe.

Exactly!

AMR

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion

Exactly!

AMR

That the present Body of Christ is the new "Israel"?

Grace and peace

Tony

[Greektim]

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

That the present Body of Christ is the new "Israel"?

Grace and peace

Tony

That depends on the extent of coventalism he takes. You can be a covenant premill and not look at the Church as a new/spiritual Israel. They just abuse OT Scripture interpreting it as ecclesiological instead of Isrealological (no I didn't make up the word ). Or he could be covenant Amill and believe the Church replaced Israel, is the new/spiritual Israel, or simply post-cross Israel (i.e. Church in the OT). No matter what, there is always a blurring between the Church and Israel.

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I am amill and lean towards partial preterism.

AMR