Chette, you seem to be speaking to me ("you have posted in on this site (a lot)"), yet part of your comments fit what JerryW wrote above (who only posted once). Can you please clarify if that was who part of your post was addressed to? Thanks.

[chette777]

I may have gotten the two of you mixed up sorry Jerry. Jerry W comment was the one I was refering too. I didn't see the W so I assumed it was you. so it can't apply to you because I had you two confused.

Let is go for now.

Okay, thanks for clarifying that mixup.

[BornAgainBibleBeliever514]

Luke,

I like the way you can handle yourself against folks who ride their confusion towards anger. If I'm confused, I'll simply admit it and ask questions!

I've been wary of this lordship salvation thing for a couple months now, only hearing about it recently, and I want to ensure that I am on the right path.

Lordship Salvation is a wicked doctrine. I am ashamed I was involved in it. My participation stemmed from the fact that I wanted to win souls, and Ray Comfort's literature seemed quite good in teaching me how to. However, his false gospel reached into my heart, and made me doubt salvation deeply. Thank God I have rejected that and accept Christ as my only all in all.

In response to this, I also happen to be doing the Ray Comfort materials as well, the Basic and Intermediate Way of the Master evangelism courses, in fact I'm moderating the classes to a small group. While I have found the methodology of getting back to using the law as a schoolmaster to drive people through the narrow gate of understanding their plight and need for a Saviour to be quite good, and sorely lacking in modern preaching.. (not around AV-people though), I had hunches something was slightly fishy.
As for the whole package, I've found some of their tracts very useful, and I've learned so many good analogies that really help in getting someone to understand things. I disaprove of their comfort-izing the KJ text to produce the Evidence bible, but I must aknowledge that it does contain lots of useful witnessing commentaries, helps and tactics.
Then I found out I could just read all the supplemental material online for free, and not have bothered with the Evidence bible... anyways, I never use it for study.
I honestly think that the method of using the law correctly, inoffensively tactical to revive the conscience of the unbeliever, circumventing their intellectual places of argument, and using the law for the purpose it was designed for: to show we are sinners in God's sight, and in need of the Saviour.
Lots of great soul-winning scriptures have been learned, and the overall methodolgies seem sound and effective, not to mention a personal revival towards soul-winning.
However I noted that they missed the boat on the episode of satanic influence in the church. They have a whole episode on this topic and miss 98% of the actual corruption, focusing just on the modern gospel perversion. (which IS important to talk about none the less).
As a KJB-believer, I can discern well enough not to throw out the baby with the bathwater and use the good teachings, and forget the weak points.

Really, the only thing I'm concerned about is this Lordship salvation issue.
Its true that Comfort's methodologies are really quite sincere, and for the most part, scripturally and doctrinally correct, except when he talks about repenting of your sins; I wonder.
It sort of lingers that one must repent completely before they can be saved. Personally, I think that a certain amount of repentance is required, but not complete repentance for every detail of you past life.
I mean, one should be repenting of disbeleif, the sin at large they now feel convicted of, and desire to turn away from them to walk towards Jesus.
Now I don't think there should be any kind of level indicator as to just how much sin needs to be dealt with up front. It seems like enough to convict the person that the wages of sin is death (hell) would be enough. Enough repentance to come to a trusting in only Jesus Christ's ability to be able to fully forgive the sin.
But one doesn't go overboard, greiving the spirit by intentionally taking liberties to sin because of the grace. And one doesn't regress, thinking there is a factor of earning or maintaining it through trying hard.

Perhaps I'm a little fuzzy here, and that's why I'd like some clarification.
As an eternally saved born-again beleiver who still struggles with sins, I know that complete repentance and utter lordship is unattainable while in my fleshly body. Although, I can testify that once I was saved, a large portion of my former lusts, sins and nature just seemed to fall away, without any desire to go back. But there is still some left, so I know its possible to be saved and not be perfect right away :P

I heard an interesting theory, that when a person gets saved, God deals with certain things in their life that He knew they needed gone for preservation's sake, something that was dangerous. And He will leave some things that are there as trials for you to deal with in His strength, to learn to excersie our faith.

I wish I could promise shorter posts.
My question is this: is there a rule of thumb one can use to divide lordship salvation from graceful salvation? (more than just a works-based vs. faith-based definition.) Any exampes of people teaching lordship?

Thanks for reading this post, and for any replies.

[Josh]

"Sis Tracy", as she calls herself, spews out Lordship Salvation bigtime.

Here is one of her pages.

She seems to think that Jesus commands us to repent fully of all our sins and make Him complete Lord of our life and Him our sole authority before one can be saved.

To make it brief, Lordship Salvation teaches the above. The Bible teaches that "repentance unto the acknowledging of the truth" is nessesary for savlation. In other words, simply turn to Christ as your Saviour and believe, trusting Him to save you.

Big difference!

In Christ,

Josh

[BornAgainBibleBeliever514]

Thanks for the reply Josh,

I guess that's what I had come to the conclusion lordship salvation was, self-purification before salvation. I am in complete agreement that this is an absolutely false doctrine/path. I don't however see how Ray Comfort attains this teaching when he tells people to repent and turn away from their sins before (immediately before) trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour. A contrite heart does go with salvation, and continued repentance and separation should continue to occur after salvation, as it has for me. By no means could anyone purify themselves before salvation, its just illogical.

Luke, you got anything to add, having had some experience with the way of the master materials?

[chette777]

The Law being a school master is again a section of verses in Galatians that needs to be rightly divided. in context it is about what had been taught to the Gentiles the obediance to the Law as a requirement for Salvation. Paul goes into his discussion and you will notice all the context is to whom the Law was given all of Israel. the law was a schoolmaster for Jews not Gentiles. though we may be guided by it. the gentiles were never under law at any time. and Paul never puts the Gentiles under law in order for the Law to drive them to Christ. because he would put them under a curse that Christ had already taken on himself.

Paul merely states that the purpose of the Law (which is for Israel only) and that it was to drive them as a school master to Christ. and anyone who puts themself under the Law first, must keep all the law or be cursed. so even thought Ray likes to use the law to drive Gentiles to Christ. the point is the Gentiles were never required to keep them in the first place. that is why so many people say, "true I can not keep the Ten Commandments" because they have never be required too.

However Paul being a Jew kept them all and had reason to boast in his own righteousness because he did so. but counted it all lost for faith in Christ righteousness alone apart from his own righteousness.

Lordship salvation and Ray Comfort have a lot more in common than meets the eye. However just because someone can confess they can not keep the law and is led to beleief on Christ's finished work and ask Jesus to be lord of their life does not prove that what Ray is teaching is correct.

for example many are always asking for people to come forward, make confessions of faith, raise their hands and other things which are nothing more that proofs that the preacher lacks faith that people have believed on Christ apart from their invitations and other gimicks. Paul never gave an invitation for anyone to ever receive Christ from Acts through Philemon. Yet people were beleiving left and right and added to the Body of Christ. the methodology of Ray is not found in scripture but the scriptures he uses are. but it doesn't make it Biblical.

[BornAgainBibleBeliever514]

Hi Chette777,
Thanks for the reply,

I do understand, of course, that the Law was given TO the Jews, and that us Gentiles were never UNDER the Law. But since all scripture is profitable, and although not all is written TO us, it is FOR us.
Now, I'm not necessarily siding with Ray Comfort, but I must point out that the law can still be Biblically used on the Gentiles, NOT to attain salvation by keeping the law, no no no, but because BY the law comes the knowledge of sin:

Romans 3:20 and 7:7 are just two examples that come to mind quickly, I'm sure there are more.

Also, Jesus Himself used the law to convict the woman at the well in John 4 and bring her to a desire for salvation.
The gentiles of yesterday and today are lulled into ignorance of sin by the enemy, they honestly don't think they deserve judgement. Adamic sin is something the average person on the street doesn't know about or care about, but the use of the law (which is also written in their hearts, Romans 2:15) can revive the conscience, and bring about realization and conviction of sin, thereby driving them like a schoolmaster to Christ. If I had more time right now, I know there are more scriptures indicating that this is a Biblical method for today. I am a dispensationalist, just to make that clear, but I'll admit I could be wrong in rightly dividing the word here or there, that's why I am studying and praying to stay on the straight and narrow path. (A workman needs to work at it, Amen?)
I have done my studies in Romans and Galatians, and I do think that its fairly straightforward to rightly divide who was under the law and who is not. But that still doesn't negate the designed effect and intended usage of the law.

I know we are not UNDER the law, but the effect of the law is the same. Even the Jews under the law couldn't attain salvation by it, they had to atone continually. It was to drive them to seek salvation.
The way of the master method brings people to look at themselves not from a worldly perspective, but from God's, leaving none justified, and in dire need of a Saviour.

Galatians was written to converted Jews and gentiles in the church of Galatia. It was illustrating the transition from law to grace that Christ brought us. The schoolmaster reference is like the direction of change from law to grace.

I earnestly do want to be sure about Ray Comfort's stuff, since I am practicing it and passing it on to others. If there are aspects I can revise, and keep the good stuff, I will. I'd like to hear any and all more opinions about the way of the master method. I might sound like a Ray Comfort defender, but I'm not, its just that I do see alot of good in there, but I want to find out what is legitimately bad, in order to avoid it. I do know that most pseudo-Christians get angry at the concept of using the law, but that's because they either a) aren't reading their Bibles, b) have been lulled by Laodecian teachings of love love love, c) are so afraid of the term legalistic, they reject anything to do with the law, or d) are afraid to see that their own witnessing method could use some shaping up.

Now I'm NOT labeling anyone here as a,b,c or d. In fact, I pursue this topic in this forum because I can see that most people here are sound Bible-believers, and I value your inputs greatly.

[chette777]

the verse Roms 3:20 is in context to those who are under law that come to the Knowledge of sin. Chapter 3 of Romans is a chapter addressing the Jews righteousness in the Law. again we never have Paul using the law to drive people to Christ. it is not Biblical in that sense.

the woman at the well was driven to the Gospel of the Kingdom, not the Gospel of Grace for salvation. Samaritans are halfblooded Jews who had rebelled against the Lords command to come to Jerusalem to offer sacrifices.

7:7 is again a Jew who had learned sin from the Law, not a Gentile. Paul is explaning the weakness of the law to save not that it drives people to Christ.

Good luck in your endeavors to be sure about Ray stuff. But just look at Paul's stuff he never does the Ray stuff. I have had more success following Paul than Ray. I learned under Ray at YWAM, a very liberal and charimatic organization of which I am glad to be out of. We had him for two weeks straight. best kept secret and some other teaching back in the early '90's.

I have never used the Law to lead a single person to Christ. I preach Christs' finished work on the cross(that would include the substitutionary death, blood atonement, God justice being appeased, etc..) and his resurrection. I led seven young ladies to the Lord on August 1st using the Paul stuff. I have faith as I preach people will beleive and it is evident in the growth of our church and in the lives of those whom I was able to impact with the Gospel of Grace. I am not a love love love guy, I am not sucked into the Charismatic experiencial Rock and Roll concert gospel of love and let live.

But God is the one who works, I only let him and give him the glory.

Blessing in your endeavors bro.

Originally Posted by Luke

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


This is the favourite verse of most Lordship Salvationists. I have no idea why!

This verse totally refutes Lordship salvation. The people there acknowledge Jesus is Lord. They probably spent their life in obedience to the Bible, and being good people, but Jesus said "I never knew you". Why? Because they didn't trust him for salvation. They heard the Lordship gospel and believed they had to maintain salvation by works. The will of God regarding salvation is revealed in John

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I'm not going to take that chance. I am not going to stand before God and say that I am a "swell guy", and I did a good job of obeying Him. He is the creator of the universe! What could I possibly do to impress God. I tell you what I can do. One thing. Accept His Son. Accepting His Son, and He will love me for eternity! Rejecting, or trying to add anything to His Son's work, and He will hate me for eternity with righteous hatred.

Lordship Salvation is a wicked doctrine. I am ashamed I was involved in it. My participation stemmed from the fact that I wanted to win souls, and Ray Comfort's literature seemed quite good in teaching me how to. However, his false gospel reached into my heart, and made me doubt salvation deeply. Thank God I have rejected that and accept Christ as my only all in all.

God bless
Luke

Hi Luke,

Is this what the verse implies, that is, does it imply that you must do some type of work in order to be accepted by Christ?

I don't believe this is what the verse means. I'd be interested to see what effect Comfort had on you. Why did you doubt your salvation?