[PB1789]

As our jewish cousins would say: "Oy Vey!"

Luke...I think that you are a Christian. That is good. What is not good is when on this website you assume that you know more than men who lived 400 years before you were born and then post things without reading the link(s) that was posted above. Take up and Read! (In this case-click on the link.)

Then you accuse me of agreeing with gophgetter... Wrongo! times 10! Try rereading my post Luke. If the word "Saints" is giving you the hebby-gebbies, it simply means "Godly persons" and is good KJ-AV language.

The words penned by those men in the 1600's with scripture proofs are rich and worth reading. Many of them had to meet "underground" and some even shed blood but they stuck with it and gave us a great document with Theological issues thought out and linked together, in a Chapter and paragraph form. You can learn much from gents like Benjamin Keach, John Bunyan, and John Gill. All Bible-Believing Baptists, who trusted that The Lord who saved them would keep them! BTW---They did NOT believe in "Greasy-Grace",,,we are called to "Live godly in Christ Jesus".

Salvation is from and Of The Lord.!.!. Man cannot save himself. The Thread Starter quoted/referred to the serpent's words in Genesis 3. I did NOT concur. Luke you are a young man, and you have much to learn still. We are very blessed to be able to "point and click" nowadays (instead of walking several miles to where the scrolls and parchments were kept) and all you need to do is point and click and read the links that I posted.

http://www.vor.org./truth/1689/1689bc17.html Perseverance of the saints.

http://www.monergism.com/ Great books/links/reviews/articles Enjoy!

Originally Posted by chette777

Gophgetter,

I will answer this question: You said, " Let me ask you something. Can we really say that we have mortified the deeds of the body by simply saying a sinners prayer and thats all we do. If we yield to the Spirit of God and allow sin to be put to death in our life, is that really a "works" salvation?"

Romans 6 is not promoting a works based Salvation but merely this, Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. the work is Gods work in us. man has some responsibilities yes but not for his salvation. only for his life after salvation which you shall be rewarded for. 2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. don't yield to God but yield to sin you give account for it and receive a reward accordingly, yield to God and not to sin your give account for it and receive a reward accordingly.

Remember yielding, reckoning and judging yourself is your duty as a Christian and this good works God has ordained you should walk in them. He has ordered you to walk or live in this manner acording to Ephesians 2:10

so your idea that Paul was teaching a works based salvation in Romans 6 is a misiterpretation of the scriptures and you are wrong. for what he is teaching is your duty as a Christian. Not a duty to be saved.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans

Greetings Chette,

In all respect to you, I really wish people would quit twisting my words. I never had the idea nor tried to infer it
that Paul was teaching a works based salvation. In fact, if you will look at one of my post, I said plainly that we all know that we are not saved by works. Let me rephrase my question so you will understand me a little better. If we allow (or yield to) the Spirit of God to mortify the deeds of the body is that our works?

You said the following:

"Romans 6 is not promoting a works based Salvation but merely this, Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. the work is Gods work in us. man has some responsibilities yes but not for his salvation."


Romans the 6th chapter is a warning to Christians not to continue in sin. This chapter is written to the Church, not to the world. Let me clarify this statement. I did not say that you said this was written to the world, OK. I found out I have to be careful in this forum about how I say things. Back to the point. Since this chapter and the verses in it are written to the Church as a warning not to continue in sin, tell me what you think of the following verse.

Rom. 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Chette, I don't know what you get out of this verse, but it seems plain to me that if we continue to yield our members unto sin, we will reap death. Here are some more verses written to believers in the Church.

Rom. 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Gal. 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

The truth is not pleasant, but the plain teaching of the Gospel is that if we continue to live in sin, we will die. As far us putting sin to death in our own strength, we all know that this impossible. But with God, all things are possible. I am in agreement wih you that it is God's works that save us. When Paul to the Galatians "to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling", he went on to say that it was God that works in us both to desire and to do His good pleasure. If we overcome sin in our life, do you actually think that any of us can take any credit for it. I don't think so. The four and twenty elders in Rev. 5 cast fell down at the foot of the Lamb and said "Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth"

By the way, this is not a message of condemnation. It is a message of hope. Jesus came to this world and died and resurrected and ascended back to the Father and then gave us the Holy Spirit to redeem us from the strongholds of sin. He came to set the captive free and to loose those that were appointed to death. That was you and I. Consider this. Do you really think it is God's desire to just forgive us and leave us captive to sin or is it His desire to totally set us free from sin. Just think about it.

Peace

Originally Posted by pbiwolski

Gophgetter,

Are you saved, right now? Can you give us a day/time when you were born spiritually, or is your salvation an ongoing thing?

I am not implying that you are not saved, but I am interested in your replies.

Greetings PB,

The answer to your 1st question is yes, I am saved right now. But what am I saved from? Right now I am saved from my past sins. I am being saved, through the Spirit, from the nature that causes me to sin. And if I endure to the end(Matt. 24:13;Rev. 2:26), I will be eternally saved and will rule and reign with Christ. I know I'm fixing to get jumped on for this statement but what I am saying is in the scripture.

The answer to your second question is May 1st, 1993. On that day, I lifted my hands toward Heaven and called on the name of Jesus. Right then and there, the Lord filled me with the Holy Ghost and I have never been the same since. Before that time, I was a drug addict and alcoholic. Since that time, I have never even wanted a drink or anything else for that matter. The Lord has changed my life. He has turned me completely around 180 degrees. Is God my Father. You better believe it. I have been born of the seed of Jesus Christ and no one can take that away from me. You guys might not want me for a brother, but guess what? I am.

Peace

[chette777]

Ac 13:38, 39 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

that is ALL sins and ALL Things past present and future.

Romans 4:5-8 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. that

the word "are" and "impute" is past present and future. all are covered bro.

you are working to keep your salvation.

Are you sure you can do enough to stay saved?

The JW's teach this too. Are you ar Jehovah witness by any chance or maybe a Sabbath Day Baptist or a Seveth Day Adventist. Cause your posts are very similar to their teachings.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

if we are in Christ and he is light then his blood cleanseth us past present and future.

[Luke]

PB1789,

Brother, why do you say "You think I am a Christian?". You have your doubts? Based on what? The fact that I am not a calvinist...

Calvinism is not the gospel. It's not even Biblical, and I think you'll find that 90% of the forum here will agree with that.

I am a Bible Believer, Biblicist, or Dispensationalist. I believe in Eternal Security. I know what Perseverance of the Saints teaches. I don't agree. I believe I am PRESERVED by Jesus Christ, not by my works.

Also, how young do you think I am, and what does it matter?

I am 26 for the record.

The major truths in the Bible have been "rediscovered" in a reverse order. Faith Alone in Christ Alone, the Distinction of Israel and the Church, the Premillennial Rapture of the Church, the Authority of Paul's writing for the Church Age.

Luther and Calvin and crowd did a good work in REFORMING the Church - back to Christ, but it was not the end of it. Darby and Scofield were just as godly men who did as much study as those prior to them.

[chette777]

Originally Posted by gophgetter

Greetings Chette,
Chette, I don't know what you get out of this verse, but it seems plain to me that if we continue to yield our members unto sin, we will reap death. Here are some more verses written to believers in the Church.

Peace

Well Paul is not taking about Spritiaul death. in 1Corinthians11 Paul says peopel were eating the bread and takling the cup in an unworthly manner and that many of them were sick, weak and asleep (meaning dead i Christ).

they were in sin and participating in the Lords table with unconfessed sin (even though they are forgiven of ALL sin and Justified of ALL things) Activity of taking the Lord table in an unworthy manner was serious enough to cause early death. The same for some today.

The failure to yeild to yeild to the Holy Ghost but unto sin will not bring spiritual death, but will eventually if continued in could result in sickness, weakness and in physical death in this life.

Working out your salvation is not the same as working for your salvation that is for sure. Working out is that duty that comes with the new life that your life reflects the salvation you have professed.

NO God has completely saved me and you when we first beleived on Christ's finished work on the cross for my sins. do I and you still have a sin nature? yes of course. that is why the working out part, the yeilding part, the reckoning part and the judging part is left to us. and why? becuase we still have the sin nature until we are completed in Christ when we are gathered to him.

we do not do the yielding or reckoning or judging to prove we are saved or stay saved. We do it becuase we are working out our salvation in practical living day by day.

a book that helped me was from a man who some think is a Calvinist but he is not. some of his early stuff seemed he was one or two point in agreement with Calvinism but that don't make you a Calvanist. Later in life in some of his writing and teaching he modified alot of his stuff but never updated his previous works. But Lewis Sperry Chafer's book grace is quite an amazing book and so is his book He that is spiritual. in them you learn what is God work and your work to walk in. Gods work is Salvation unto completeion in Christ at our going to him (that includes keeping us saved), our work is to stay right before the Lord until we go to be with the Lord.

Originally Posted by chette777

Ac 13:38, 39 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

that is ALL sins and ALL Things past present and future.

Romans 4:5-8 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. that

the word "are" and "impute" is past present and future. all are covered bro.

you are working to keep your salvation.

Are you sure you can do enough to stay saved?

The JW's teach this too. Are you ar Jehovah witness by any chance or maybe a Sabbath Day Baptist or a Seveth Day Adventist. Cause your posts are very similar to their teachings.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

if we are in Christ and he is light then his blood cleanseth us past present and future.

Greetings Chette,

Can I do enough to stay saved? NO. I can't do enough to stay saved or be saved. It is God and His Son that saves us. Yielding to the Spirit of God is not us working out our salvation, it is God doing it. Salvation is not about outward works, but the inward purification of the heart and soul. When Jesus began his earthly ministry and was laying the foundation for His church in Matthew 5, 6 and 7, He changed the covenant from what was an outward obedience to the law to getting down to the thoughts and motives of our heart. That is why He said in Matt. 5 that unless our righteousness exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees, we would in no way enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. We must have a pure heart. If not, we will not see God.

Matt. 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

2 Cor. 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

When we first come to God as a sinner, our hearts are unclean and unpure. His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. Not only are our hearts unpure, but they are decietful and desperately wicked. We by our own carnal reasoning can never completely know our heart. This is why God gave us the Spirit of God and the Word of God.

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

I don't know if you caught the analogy or not, but James is likening the Word of God to a mirror. Whenever we look into a natural mirror, we see our face. But when we look into the Word of God we see our heart. Whatever uncleanness we see in our heart, God wants to purify us from that "by the washing of water, by the word". He does this through His Spirit.

1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Salvation is of the Lord!
Peace

[pbiwolski]

Gophgetter,

Do you really suppose that you receive "eternal salvation" at death? What if, perhaps, you received it at birth - the new spiritual birth?

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

[Forrest]

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God" (1 John 3:8-9).

I know...many say that these verses mean that we will not "continually" or "habitually" sin because the word "sinneth" is the present tense. Really? What does that mean? I'll only lust, get angry, or worry once per month? Maybe under grace it means God permits us to commit a sin (any sin), once each day. My righteousness is only Jesus Christ. He is the only One Who can live the genuine Christian life. "For me to live is Christ..."

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" (1 John 2:1).

[Josh]

Amen! Eternal Life begins the moment someone accepts Christ as their personal Saviour! I'm not trying to get it, I already have it!