I don't need to or feel the need to refute all your (or others') errors point by point. There is a time to let some things go out of obedience to God's Word:

2 Timothy 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

2 Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

2 Timothy 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

[George]

Originally Posted by jerry

I don't need to or feel the need to refute all your (or others') errors point by point. There is a time to let some things go out of obedience to God's Word:

2 Timothy 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

2 Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

2 Timothy 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

That's "real neat" brother (or should I say clever?). You declare with "finality":

Originally Posted by Jerry (General Chit-Chat - Dr. Ruckman - Post #15)

"The OT didn't look forward to the death of Christ? Genesis 3 tells a different story - so does Psalm 22, Isaiah 53, other passages.

This ends the debate, if you accept the Bible:"

And along comes a fellow brother in Christ with 32 type written pages (so far) that refutes your statement - point by point; and all you can do to "skinny out" of defending your position is misuse the scriptures - You did say: "This ends the debate, if you accept the Bible:", didn't you? Well back it up and prove it, or admit that you can't, instead of "weaseling" out with this lame use of scripture (after all you did make the claim).

This isn't the first time you have done this as the following will demonstrate:

jerry - Post #46 – Bible Studies - Dr. Peter S. Ruckman's Bible Believer's Bulletin free for download!!!!!!

"The Bible also tells us to judge people by their fruits - doctrine and words are fruit. We are commanded to expose what is wrong - that would include exposing rotten fruit when it shows up."

You made the statement declaring with "finality": "doctrine and words are fruit." And when I replied with the following (My Post #69 - same topic):

"doctrine and words are fruit"?

Wrong again brother!

You must Scripturally distinguish between the "works" of the flesh and "fruit". The following is the Scriptural definition of "works" & "fruit":

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


You said: "doctrine and words are fruit" - and yet the Holy Bible contradicts you - which is right? Hmmm?

"Doctrine"; "words"; & "works" are never "Fruit" - although "Fruit" can lead to "Good Works"; "Pure Words"; and "Sound Doctrine" - Never put the cart before the Horse!

Instead of defending your position - you ignored the scriptural correction to your erroneous "interpretation" of scripture. Is this a habit of yours? Ignoring correction and failing to defend statements? And when faced with no other alternative - avoid a scriptural defense of your position by running to verses that do not apply to the situation?

I wonder (in the 589 posts that you have made on this Forum) have you ever been wrong? Or have you ever admitted to having made an error in "interpreting" the scriptures?

Or do you just "ignore" or lightly "dismiss" scriptural statements and proofs whenever they contradict your "claims"?

I've read most of your 589 posts and I'm probably in agreement with 80% - 85% of what you say, however there are doctrines and precepts where we differ, and if you are going to make declarative statements about doctrine with such finality you should be willing to back up what you believe.

[Stvvv1611]

Originally Posted by Stvvv1611

Next post Jerry… I’ll tie the uncircumcision origin to Abraham, in the context of Romans, and show exact distinction to how righteousness was to be imputed to these Gentiles as to how righteousness was imputed to Abraham (Gen 12) and the circumcision.

The bone of contention underlying these posts Jerry is over your position that the events in the lives of Abraham and David, as recorded by Paul in Romans 4, are typical of all OT saints, from Adam through Israel, for righteousness. Paul is proving just the opposite that these events in the lives of these two OT saints as exceptions to the rule… not the rule, and as illustration to how God was now providing righteousness!

Last post I proved Abraham as the father of the circumcision ‘by faith’ pointing to Gen 12 and showed the relationship between the gospel of the circumcision and Gentile during the Acts period. I’m now turning the corner in this post in tracing the Gentile’s lineage to Abraham as to when and how. I’m going to begin doing so by showing terms of contrast between righteousness through law and righteousness which is of faith found in Romans and Galatians that are very pertinent to this subject:

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Romans 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Galatians 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Galatians 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

Now… the following observations are made from above passages:

1. Law of works is held in contrast to the ‘law of faith’ (Rom 4:13, Gal 3:2, 3:5, 3:12)

2. That Abraham should be heir of the world (Gen 18:18; 22:18) was through the righteousness ‘of faith’ (Rom 4:13)

3. All the seed includes not only that which is of the law but also which is of the faith of Abraham… father of us all (circumcision & uncircumcision); (Rom 4:16)

4. ‘Of faith’ is associated with both ‘by grace’ and the ‘faith of Abraham’ for a certain segment of the seed (Rom 4:16; Gal 3:7, 9); hmmm… wonder which segment Jerry?

5. Gentiles who were neither under or followed the law for righteousness have now attained to righteousness… a righteousness which is ‘of faith’ (Rom 9:30)

6. The righteousness which is ‘of faith’ is expressed through confession and believing (Rom 10:6-10)

7. Obedience ‘of faith’ was now being made known to all nations as manifested by the scriptures of the prophets in accordance to the commandment of God (Rom 1:5; 16:26). This ‘now’ is in view of Paul’s gospel (**my gospel)… and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, (Rom 16:25). **Not Peter’s Gospel Jerry!!

Now… we’ll look at a few of these ‘of faith’ expressions in context beginning in Galatians:

Galatians 3:1-19 1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Deductions:

1. The receiving the Spirit, in context, was via the hearing of faith as contrasted to the doeth aspect of the works of the law (vv 2, 5, 10, 12)

2. The reference to Abraham believing God and being accounted righteous points to Gen 15… not Gen 12! (v 6).

I already established the fact that Abraham was righteous prior to Gen 12 walking ‘by faith’ (Heb 11:8-9; Gen 11:27 – 12:3). A land for inheritance was promised to Abraham and ‘thy seed’… heirs of same promise (Gen 12:1, 7; Heb 11:9; Isaac & Jacob).

3. ‘Of faith’ and they associated with ‘of faith’ are same as the children of Abraham (vv 7, 9)

4. The Scripture foresaw something… that God was going to justify the heathen (nations / Gentiles / uncircumcision) someday ‘through faith’ (v 8; Rom 3:30; Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.). Jerry... we are now coming full circle!

5. ‘Through faith’ falls under the category of ‘of faith’ (vv 8-9)

6. This ‘gospel’ preached before unto Abraham, saying “in thee shall all nations be blessed.” (Gen 18:18; 22:18) is the ‘gospel of the uncircumcision’ (Gal 2:7) ‘through faith’ (Rom 3:30; Gal 3:8; Eph 2:8-9) which is ‘of faith’, the faith of Abraham pointing back to Gen 15… again, not Gen 12! No Jerry… God did not preach unto Abraham the death, burial and resurrection for justification; stick with the context!

Woven back and forth through Genesis is reference to a physical seed ‘by faith’ (works) which is the circumcision with a land inheritance (Gen 12:1, 7) and a future spiritual seed ‘through faith’ (through Christ) with a heavenly inheritance! One turns out to be a subject of prophecy revealed since the foundation of the world… while the other hid in prophecy later to be revealed… by Paul.

7. In driving home the point that justification today is now without works Paul quotes Hab 2:4 (v 11), but leaves out ‘his’ which takes the emphasis off of man and puts it elsewhere; hmmm… perhaps on Christ (vv 10-13; Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe)?

8. Verse 14 can’t be any clearer Jerry and is self explanatory in the context! “That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.” Gentiles receive the promise of the Spirit through the seed of vv 16 & 19 (Christ), ‘through faith’… not ‘by faith’ as did Israel (Ac 2:38)!

Now… let’s take a trip back to Genesis 15 to observe the conversation between the LORD and Abraham:

Genesis 15:1-6 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward. 2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? 3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. 4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. 5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Reading between the lines, the conversation may have gone something like this; or maybe not

LORD: Abram… I am thy shield and exceeding great reward!
Abram: good to hear from You again LORD! About that side journey into Egypt and those half-truths concerning Sarai my wife… well, good thing we didn’t have any kids yet; right? LORD… speaking of children…?
LORD: Look up and tell the number of the starts… so shall thy seed be.
Abram: Oh thanks LORD for another chance… what do You want me to do?
LORD: That’s it Abram!
Abram: What’s it LORD?
LORD: Look up and tell the number of the starts… so shall thy seed be.
Abram: That’s it???? That’s it… Ooooh…that’s it!!

Ya know what the Lord did then Jerry? He took a rock stamp with the word ‘righteousness’ engraved underside, tapped a blood stained goat’s skin and slapped Abram right on the forehead with it and thus… He counted it to him for righteousness! Okay… so I have a wild imagination!

I believe Jerry that Abraham was as justified and as righteous between Gen 12 – 15 as at that moment… the whole difference being that this time imputation was based on believing God for something and not on obedience to God to get something!

Romans 4:18-25 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

You see Jerry… Abraham being justified in simply believing what God said was the exception to the rule and not the rule itself.

Romans 4:1-5 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

‘Our father’ (v 1) points to those in Paul’s salutation and benediction who are now of the obedience of faith among the nations (Rom 1:1-6), according to prophecy (of faith/Abraham Gen 15) and in particular in accordance to mystery… via Paul’s gospel (Rom 16:25-27); Paul being the apostle to the Gentiles/uncircumcision (Rom 11:13; Gal 2:7). All of this is in view of Israel’s fall (Rom 11:11-12), the mystery of Israel’s blindness in part (Rom 11:25) and the grafting in of the Gentiles (Rom 11:17).

And that’s not all! The focus here has been regarding the nations, but something else is going down under Paul’s ministry with such grandeur significance to the Jew themselves that necessitates Paul’s focus on Abraham in Romans 4. A remnant of Israel was now being saved through faith without works (Rom 11:1-10)!

Romans 11:5-6 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

See it Jerry?! And if by grace…then is it no more of works! If it be of works, then is it no more grace…otherwise work is no more work! How can this distinction be made any clearer! Just as God reserved a remnant unto Himself (1Kings 18) that didn’t bow the knee to Baal, so God was now saving a remnant of Israel by grace through faith via believing and it is to this end that Paul demonstrates Abraham to the Jew so that the Jew would know exactly what believing for justification would look like! Can you imagine Paul trying to convince any Jew of such justification if Paul couldn’t demonstrate, by way of example, of God having already done so!?

Jerry… here’s a perfect example demonstrating what’s going down during this time period of transition. Apollos was a Jewish convert of John the Baptist, meaning that Apollos believed on him that was to follow John… Christ Jesus (Ac 19:3-4) and justified God being baptized with the baptism of John (Lk 7:29-30). Notice carefully Jerry what transpired after Apollos bumped into Aquila & Priscilla, disciples of Paul (Ac 18:24-28):

Acts 18:26-27 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. 27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Isn’t this great Jerry! Apollos, a Jewish convert of the circumcision justified ‘by faith’ in believing on Christ Jesus via John’s kingdom message of baptism of repentance for remission of sins turns around and helps them much in Achaia which had believed through grace… Paul’s message of the finished work of Christ without works! I love my KJV!

Jerry… here’s the point one must not miss! Apollos was just as righteous as those folks in Achaia which had believed through grace via Paul’s gospel, the difference being how God imputed each, ‘by faith’ and ‘through faith’ (Rom 3:30)!

Before ending this post I believe it is important to touch on the elements of ‘believing’, ‘through faith’ and the ‘Spirit’ as down payment for our inheritance, as just presented in context of Romans & Galatians, as also supported by two familiar passages in Ephesians:

Ephes. 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephes. 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

3 points are made concerning these Ephesians Gentiles from above passages:

A. They ‘believed’ the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation which was Paul’s gospel (3:6-7). B. They were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise which is a subject of Gal 3:14 regarding receiving the promise of the Spirit ‘through faith’. C. ‘Through faith’, which points to the faithfulness/trustworthiness of Christ, is held in contrast to ‘by faith’ as seen in ‘and that not of yourselves… not of works, lest any man should boast’.

Jerry… ‘through faith’ is not a reference to our ‘believing’; Paul puts believing in proper perspective and sequence in Eph 1:13-14 after hearing the word of truth the gospel of our salvation (Rom 10:8-10)!

Abraham is only half the equation of what justification without works would look like to the Jew; David is the other half and we’ll look at him in our next post.

Stvvv1611
2 Timothy 2:15

[Gord]

Stvvv1611, I appreciate the amount of work you put into these posts in this thread, and have found them a great source of information, and thought provoking and they have been a blessing to me.

[Stvvv1611]

Originally Posted by Stvvv1611

Abraham is only half the equation of what justification without works would look like to the Jew; David is the other half and we’ll look at him in our next post.

When posting my last post I noted that Jerry, to whom these posts were being directed, is no longer active. Being the case, I find it hard to continue addressing someone who isn’t listening… in more ways than one. However, believing he’ll be back to take a peek at answers to questions he could not respond to, I will conclude these series of posts. I’m grateful for the encouragement received from others regarding these posts and since I know they’re still tuned in, you will note a change in my ‘tone’ of writing. I assume that all who have kept up with this study directed towards Jerry, understand my directness and sarcasm, as such, in light of the category in which these posts fall under (Ruckman), and in view of the fact that often one has to fight fire with fire, as the case with Jerry. I would never have jumped in this discussion if it wasn’t for the way Jerry responded to Chette777 in ignoring a response of his followed by… “This ends the debate, if you accept the Bible?” Thus, I will conclude this study on ‘By Faith’ ‘Through Faith’ in my normal style of presentation.

Since the creation of man and the calling out of Israel from among the nations as God’s chosen nation and people, the Jew understood only how God dealt with man ‘by faith’… believing God in obedience.

The scripture foreseeing that God that would eventually bring the Gentile into the picture on more even ground, other than a submissive role which is still to be demonstrated in a future millennial earthly kingdom, God preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. As demonstrated in last post, this promise was based on a future seed (Christ) ‘through faith’ by grace… in believing.

Acts 26:16-18 16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

In taking out the ‘work’ aspect of obtaining righteousness and promoting a righteousness by grace simply in believing, Paul was accused of (among other things) living life without law (Rom 6:1, 15). God was also now saving a remnant of Israel by grace without works under Paul’s ministry (Rom 11:5-6), but how in the world would Paul convince any Jew of a possible salvation? Easy… by way of examples that were exceptions to the rule in how God dealt with two OT saints; Abram and David. We concluded Abraham as example of justification without works showing the difference of how righteousness was imputed prior to Gen 15 (by faith) and then in Gen 15 (through faith). In other words… obedience verses believing.

David, as presented by Paul in Romans 4, brings another very important aspect into the picture concerning this way of justification:

Romans 4:6-8 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

The issue concerning Abraham was works verses believing; the issue with David concerns iniquities /sins / sin! David was in deep doo doo! A word used by Paul (dung; Phil 3:8) may express same so perhaps we could say, since David was a shepherd, that David was in deep sheep dung!

Acts 13:38-39 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Up till now the work ‘element’ that I’ve focused on is that of offering sacrifices for… without the shedding of blood is no remission (Heb 22). As indicated in above passage there were certain sins or things from which one could not be justified by the law of Moses in which David committed two of them; murder and adultery!

Now… we need to make a distinction before moving on with this thought and that is the difference between Israel being baptized unto someone and we being baptized into someone. Yes… words are important!

Once again we can rely on the perversion of the NIV to distort a most important doctrinal distinction here:

1 Corinthians 10:1-2 (KJV) 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

1 Corinthians 10:1-2 (NIV) 1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

How can you take a multitude of Jews and strangers (Ex 12:38; Lev 17:8) and put (baptize / consecrate / sanctify) them into a human being? You can’t! Unless… that being is a special ‘Being’:

Galatians 3:27-28 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

1 Cor. 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

1 Cor. 6:16-17 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Jesus spoke of a special relationship that was to exist between He, the Father, the twelve and those who would believe through theirword:

John 17:20-21 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

We see this union illustrated throughout the Acts period (Ac 2:41, 47; 5:14; 11:19-24) and Paul even spoke of those…“…who also were in Christ before me (Rom 16:7). It’s not my purpose here to dive into specific hopes and callings (who is going to spend eternity where), but Paul speaks of a future dispensation in which all things in Christ (both in heaven & on earth) are going to be made manifest and then goes on and speaks to addressed Gentiles as God’s inheritance and to their inheritance (Eph 1:10-18):

Ephes. 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Before making my point regarding the importance of distinguishing between Israel being baptized unto Moses and Jew & Gentile now being baptized into Christ, in previous posts I proved that Paul didn’t receive his gospel from the twelve, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ and it is through his gospel that Jews and Gentiles were now being baptized into Christ. Regardless of which gospel (kingdom or grace), I do not believe that once in Christ, someone can fall out of Christ! I do believe in the eternal security of the believer! If one argues against the eternity security of the believer then my question is… what or who are you relying on for salvation!? Do you have a ‘by faith’ or a ‘through faith’ salvation!?

Can the same be said about those baptized unto Moses or born into this Nation that remained under law?

TEXT COMMANDMENTS RESULTS IN FAILURE TO OBSERVE
Gen 17:1-13 – circumcision (basis of contention in Acts 15) – that soul shall be cut off from his people–v14
Ex 12:14-18 – memorial of unleavened bread (Passover) – even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land–v19
Ex 30:22-32 – oil of holy ointment – shall even be cut off from his people–v33
Ex 30:34-37 – pure & holy perfume – shall even be cut off from his people–v38
Ex 31:12-17 – Sabbath – every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death:...that soul shall be cut off from among his People...he shall surely be put to death–vv14, 15
Lev 7:18-27 – improper eating of the sacrifice – the soul that eateth of it shall bear his iniquity–v18...that soul shall be cut off from his People–vv20, 21, 25, 27
Lev 17:1-11 – place of the blood offering – blood shall be imputed unto that man;...that man shall be cut off from among his people–vv4, 9
Lev 17:10 – eating of blood – will cut him off from among his People–v10
Lev 18:6-21 – uncovering nakedness–19 adultery–20; seed passing through the fire to Molech–21 – For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their People–v29
Lev 19:5-7 – eating of the peace offering – that soul shall be cut off from among his People–v8
Lev 20:6, 27 – familiar spirits & wizards – will cut him off from among his People–vv6, 27
Lev 22:1-9 – washing – that soul shall be cut off from My presence–v3 lest they bear sin for it, and die therefore–v9
Lev 23:23-32 – day of atonement – he shall be cut off from among his People–v29 the same soul will I destroy from among his People–v30
Num 9:13 – Passover – even the same soul shall be cut off from among his People...that man shall bear his sin–v13
Num 15:30 – presumptuous sins – that soul shall be cut off from among his People–v30 that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him–v31
Num 19:1-22 – water of separation – that soul shall be cut off from Israel–v13 that soul shall be cut off from among the congregation–v20

Here’s the issue… reflecting back on Ac 13:38-39 regarding those ‘things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses’, once a year on the day of atonement, Aaron would lay both hands upon a scapegoat confessing all the iniquities and sins of the children of Israel followed by the offering of another goat for a sin offering:

Leviticus 16:21-22 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: 22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

Leviticus 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD… 34 And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses.

The only biblical deduction one can possibly come to is that those who fell prey to any of the sins listed that necessitated separation from Israel obviously was omitted from the Day of Atonement ceremonies conducted by the High Priest. This is exactly where David found himself!

Psalm 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

By all rights, David should have either been expelled from Israel or stoned! No… God desirest not sacrifice, for the penalty for David’s sin should have been death. Perhaps a substitute was found in the death of a child (2Sam 12:14)?

I have no idea how David came to conclusion that the LORD had really forgiven him, but I saw a movie on TV many years ago that really stuck with me that I thought greatly illustrated David’s resolve. In this movie David was before the Ark of the LORD broken before God in dire desperation; it was a do or die situation. That’s exactly what sin and conviction will do to you… it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks (Ac 9:5). David had witnessed once before what would happen if someone unauthorized would touch the Ark (Num 4:15-20; 2 Sam 6:1-11), as was the case of Uzzah; 2 Samuel 6:7 “And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God.” Anyways, the movie portrayed David finding resolve by placing his hands on the Ark to determine either God’s judgment or God’s forgiveness… I guess there is one other passage or two we could consider in determining how David knew the LORD’s forgiveness, but then that would mean he would have had to simply take God at His word:

2 Samuel 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

In Romans 4, Paul provided a solid case as to what justification ‘through faith’ by grace and without works would look like to the Jew. Paul’s argument was based on events in the lives of two men; Abraham and David. Abraham was an exception to the rule under the OT in that God imputed righteousness to him through believing (Gen 15) as opposed to obedience (Gen 12), as was the principle of ‘by faith’. David was an exception to the rule under law because David found grace and mercy from God regarding sins that the law had not provided for and that David had committed (Ac 13:38-39)!

That Jerry… is Paul’s argument in Romans 4.

Here’s why it is essential to discern between justification ‘by faith’ and ‘through faith’ (Rom 3:30):

1. Salvation – A. If distinction isn’t made then how does one know if they’re not applying ‘by faith’ principles of justification to ‘through faith’ justification? B. If ‘by faith’ justification isn’t completely understood, then I believe ‘through faith’ justification cannot be completely appreciated! C. The answer to easy believism today may find its roots in this confusion… one does something like joining a church, being baptized or walking an aisle thinking they just got saved.

2. Eternal Security – Distinguishing between the two resolves this issue immediately; one’s obedience verses the obedience of another (Christ; Rom 5:19).

3. Gospels – Recognizing the distinction clears the way for understanding gospels relating to each the Jew and Gentile; gospel of the circumcision & gospel of the uncircumcision… the gospel of the kingdom & the gospel of the grace of God.

4. Baptism w/water – Want to resolve the age long debate between the Church of Christ and Baptists over Mk 16:16 and Ac 2:38; get a grasp on the distinction between ‘by faith’ and ‘through faith’. The Church of Christ understands ‘by faith’, the Baptist ‘through faith’, but neither understanding the other has to force scripture to their own doctrinal interpretation. The Church of Christ, I personally believe, preaches a false gospel while the Baptist has to force interpretation on baptism w/water that simply isn’t there.

Stvvv1611
2 Timothy 2:15

PS I’m sure I’ve raised some questions; please feel free to ask or comment and I promise not to respond to you as I did Jerry

[chette777]

connie,

Faith has always been exercised for any type of Salvation. but not all are saved the way we are. those in the Millenial kingdom will have faith that if they do the right work they can enter the eternity.

go to www.preservedwords.com/books.html read time mortons book on dispensations. it will help you immensly. if I had written a book it would have said and taught exactly as Tim ahs penned them there.

[George]

Not so fast Part 8 > Post #275

By all rights, David should have either been expelled from Israel or stoned! No… God desirest not sacrifice, for the penalty for David’s sin should have been death. Perhaps a substitute was found in the death of a child (2Samuel 12:14)?

Another great post brother Steve.
Please consider the following – David’s life was spared but ultimately he “reaped”.

2Samuel 12:5 And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the LORD liveth, the man that hath done this thing
2Sa 12:6 And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.
2Sa 12:7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;


Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

David’s REAPING:

#1. The infant male child. 2 Samuel 12:19 But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead.

#2. Amnon – David’s “firstborn” son. 2 Samuel 13:28 Now Absalom had commanded his servants, saying, Mark ye now when Amnon's heart is merry with wine, and when I say unto you, Smite Amnon; then kill him, fear not: have not I commanded you? be courageous, and be valiant. 29 And the servants of Absalom did unto Amnon as Absalom had commanded. Then all the king's sons arose, and every man gat him up upon his mule, and fled.

#3. Absalom. – David’s “third” son. 2 Samuel 18:14 Then said Joab, I may not tarry thus with thee. And he took three darts in his hand, and thrust them through the heart of Absalom, while he was yet alive in the midst of the oak. 15 And ten young men that bare Joab's armour compassed about and smote Absalom, and slew him.

#4. Adonijah. – David’s “fourth” son. 1 Kings 2:23 Then king Solomon sware by the LORD, saying, God do so to me, and more also, if Adonijah have not spoken this word against his own life. 24 Now therefore, as the LORD liveth, which hath established me, and set me on the throne of David my father, and who hath made me an house, as he promised, Adonijah shall be put to death this day. 25 And king Solomon sent by the hand of Benaiah the son of Jehoiada; and he fell upon him that he died.

NOTICE: David’s own judgment is ultimately measured out to his seed – EXACTLY as he pronounced it! David had the “sure mercies”, but that didn’t mean that he could get away with sin (adultery & murder), without reaping.

{Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.}

Not only did he lose 4 sons (an eye for an eye), he also suffered the humiliation of his son Absalom “lying” with His (David’s) concubines (in public) for his adulteress affair with Bathsheba.

2 Samuel 12:5 And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the LORD liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die:
6 And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.
7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.
11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.
13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

This is the “Classic Illustration” of a “saved” man (eternally secure), having to “reap” (not pay) for his sins. When we sin or when we fail to judge “righteously” – be assured that there will be some “reaping” either here or at the Judgment Seat of Christ. David was “saved”, but he didn’t “get away” with adultery or murder – and neither will we “get away” with our sins either. Christ paid for our sins, and we are eternally secure in Him, but that doesn’t mean that we are “immune” from the immutable precepts and principles of God.
{Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.}

[Stvvv1611]

Originally Posted by George

Not so fast Part 8 > Post #275



Another great post brother Steve.
Please consider the following – David’s life was spared but ultimately he “reaped”.

George... your follow-up was better than my post!

What a message... thanks brother!

Stvvv1611

[Cody1611]

Dr. Peter Ruckman will be coming to Bible Baptist Church in Lancing, Tennessee(about a hour from me). He will be preaching and doing some chalk drawing, so please keep this meeting in your prayers. Pray that the Holy Spirit will lead everything that is done.