You're splitting hairs to no purpose. If hundreds of thousands could witness the amazing events the first generation of Israelites did and still dance around a golden idol, or for that matter if thousands could witness the miracles Jesus did and still end up choosing Barabbas over Him, that proves that seeing means absolutely nothing. It's the faith that lives on after the initial seeing that matters. Thomas needed to see in order to have faith. We are to learn from that incident (which God orchestrated in order to teach us this lesson), that we are in no worse position than any of the disciples were, because physical seeing has nothing to do with how anybody gets saved.

Anyway, we DO see, we see by the eyes of faith, the only ones that count.

OK, I know I'm not going to change your mind nor you mine, so I won't say any more.

[Biblestudent]

Bro. George,
Here's the way I look at this:
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

1.With Thomas, it's FAITH ("believed") after SIGHT ("seen").
2.With us, it's FAITH ("believed") without SIGHT ("not seen").

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

My Bible school instructors often call this a definition, and they have also taught me that this verse stresses the importance faith. I think the latter was "closer" to the truth. I looked at this verse when I was second year in Bible college because one of my schoolmates quit and called us all - including the faculty - "heretics" for not taking his view that this is the ABSOLUTE definition of faith. Here are some points why I do not believe that Hebrews 11:1 cannot be the only definition of faith.

1. It does NOT say faith is "hoping for things".
2. It does NOT say things is "believing things not seen".
3. What it DOES say is:
1) Faith is the SUBSTANCE -- the substance of things hoped for.
sub·stance [súbstənss]
(plural sub·stances)
noun
1. material: a kind of matter or material
2. tangible physical matter: physical reality that can be touched and felt
3. practical value: real or practical value or importance
There was nothing of substance in the document.
4. material wealth: wealth in the form of money and possessions
5. gist of meaning: the actual or essential meaning of something said or written
the substance of their argument
6. philosophy essence: the unchanging essence of something
7. philosophy something specific: something that is individual and caused
[13th century. Via French < Latin substantia "essence" (translation of Greek hupostasis) < substare, literally "stand under" < stare "to stand"]
Microsoft® Encarta® 2007. © 1993-2006 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
To me, it says faith SUBSTANTIATES hope. Faith gives SUBSTANCE to our hope.

2) Faith is the EVIDENCE -- the evidence of things not seen.

ev·i·dence [évvid'nss]
noun
1. sign or proof: something that gives a sign or proof of the existence or truth of something, or that helps somebody to come to a particular conclusion
There is no evidence that the disease is related to diet.
2. proof of guilt: the objects or information used to prove or suggest the guilt of somebody accused of a crime
The police have no evidence.
3. statements of witnesses: the oral or written statements of witnesses and other people involved in a trial or official inquiry
transitive verb (past and past participle ev·i·denced, present participle ev·i·denc·ing, 3rd person present singular ev·i·denc·es)
demonstrate or prove: to demonstrate or prove something (usually passive)
Their unwillingness to participate is evidenced by their failure to contact us.
Microsoft® Encarta® 2007. © 1993-2006 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

The Bible says "Faith is the EVIDENCE of things not seen." We have not seen God creating the world. Our EVIDENCE is FAITH.
To my simple understanding of what Hebrews 11:1 SAYS, Faith is the SUBSTANCE and EVIDENCE of what we hope and what we have not seen. That's how IMPORTANT faith is. The rest of the chapter follows that line, too.

4. Hebrews 11:1 does not deny that faith is not needed after sight. Suppose, there were many who have SEEN Christ's miracles, His cross and His empty tomb. Do they still need FAITH?

5. May I also add some dispensational flavor to this. Hebrews is written to HEBREWS, who require SIGHT/sign. 2 Corinthians 5:7 is written to the CHURCH, whose promises are based on the MYSTERY not SEEN before (Eph. 3:1-5)

Back to Thomas, he said he will not believe UNLESS he sees. Does he have faith?
When he SAW Christ, he BELIEVED. Does he have faith then?

The Gospels pretty clearly teach ALL the apostles (except Judas) were saved during Jesus' years of ministry, not afterwards. Thomas believed in the resurrection by sight - it doesn't say he was saved by sight. Every believer who ever lived - including all those that were around the cross - were saved by faith. Viewing Jesus' death doesn't tell you He died for your sins, that He paid the whole penalty, that He was righteous, etc. Those are things that must be accepted by faith - and faith is believing what God has said about something. When Jesus told His disciples He was going to lay His life down for them and die for their sins, they believed Him - even if there were some things they didn't understand about the resurrection (until after the fact).

[George]

Originally Posted by Connie

You're splitting hairs to no purpose. If hundreds of thousands could witness the amazing events the first generation of Israelites did and still dance around a golden idol, or for that matter if thousands could witness the miracles Jesus did and still end up choosing Barabbas over Him, that proves that seeing means absolutely nothing. It's the faith that lives on after the initial seeing that matters. Thomas needed to see in order to have faith. We are to learn from that incident (which God orchestrated in order to teach us this lesson), that we are in no worse position than any of the disciples were, because physical seeing has nothing to do with how anybody gets saved.

Anyway, we DO see, we see by the eyes of faith, the only ones that count.

OK, I know I'm not going to change your mind nor you mine, so I won't say any more.

I find it interesting, and again very instructive, that although I made no comment (positive or negative) about your "view" on this matter that you could not restrain yourself from making a critical remark about what I believe.

"You're splitting hairs to no purpose."

That's your "opinion" (for what it's worth), however, I have been commanded to: "rightly divide the word of truth" and no amount of "harmonizing" and "private interpretation" on your part will get me to change God's method of study just because you choose to ignore it!

Thomas needed to see in order to believe You are reading into the Scripture your "private opinion". The Lord Jesus Christ rebukes Thomas for being "faithless" (John 20:27). He was not talking about a "lack" of faith - He was rebuking Thomas for having NO FAITH! He refused to believe the disciples words (the record - the words of God). In John 20:29 the Lord clearly states: "because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." Thomas refused to believe by "faith" - he insisted (required) on "seeing", and when he "saw" he believed. Those of us who have heard the word of God and believed have done so by "faith", without seeing. There is a difference - the Lord Jesus Christ said so! (John 20:29)

Thomas was "faithless" and refused to "believe" unless he could actually: "see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe." (John 20:25)

"Anyway, we DO see, we see by the eyes of faith, the only ones that count." {Chapter & Verse please?}

Why do you continue to "insist" on making declarative statements based on your "private opinion" as if they were equal to the words of God? The Bible states quite clearly HOW faith comes and contrary to your "private opinion" "SEEING" has NOTHING to do with it:

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So then, Thomas refused to hear the words of God (the disciples' testimony), and in doing so he refused to believe (by "faith"). Instead he insisted on SEEING before he would BELIEVE - Again "FAITH" had nothing to do with his believing - IF "faith" cometh by hearing the word of God - which since the Scriptures declare it to be so - I accept the Bible record with no emendations, subtractions, or additions from you or anyone else.

John 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

[George]

(Biblestudent Post - General chit chat – Dr. Ruckman - Post #252) -

Aloha brother Sammy,

I'm not going to belabor the point nor am I going to go off in a huff because someone doesn't agree with me (after all I am fallible) , however I will try to expound a bit more.

Your quote – Post #252

“I think Hebrews 11:1 is just one of the definitions of faith. In fact, Hebrews 11 seems to emphasize the IMPORTANCE of faith rather than give the "only" definition of faith.”

Do you know of any other definitions of “faith” in the Scriptures?

To be honest, I haven't looked real hard in the Bible for other definitions of "faith" (there may be more). However, when I read the whole Chapter of Hebrews 11 - I have a slightly different "take" on it than you do.

In addition to emphasizing the “importance” of faith [Verse 6]; Hebrews 11:1 gives us the “definition” of “faith”; while the vast majority of Chapter 11 illustrates “HOW” faith works {i.e. by “faith} or demonstrates “faith” in operation {i.e. through “faith”} - by giving us various examples of “faith”, (through the personal experiences of Old Testament saints) which I believe is the main purpose of the chapter.

So we have:
#1. The definition of “faith” {Verse 1)
#2. Illustrations or demonstrations of “faith” in operation. {Most of the Verses}
#3. The “importance” of “faith” {Verse 6)

At the beginning of the Chapter (to insure that no one substitutes their “private opinion” or “private interpretation” of "faith") God gives us His definition of “faith” – The same “faith” that is illustrated or demonstrated in the rest of the Chapter.

First of all, when it comes to the definition of words in the Bible that are of any spiritual significance or importance – I NEVER rely on Webster’s; Strong’s; Thayers; Kittel’s; or any other man to define God’s words. I always go to the “Source” – the Holy Scriptures - for God’s definition (comparing scripture with scripture – Isaiah 28:10&13).

Let’s “rightly divide the word of truth” – according to the testimony of God’s word:

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

“faith is the substance”
#1. So then: FAITH = a SUBSTANCE.

“faith is the substance of things hoped for”
#2. and: that SUBSTANCE = THINGS hoped for

“faith is the substance of things hoped for”
#3. then: those THINGS that are = HOPED FOR – are not tangible – they are “hoped” for!

“faith is the substance of things hoped for”, the evidence of things not seen.
#4. and: the SUBSTANCE of FAITH = EVIDENCE of things not seen

“faith is the substance of things hoped for”, the evidence of things not seen.
#5. and: the EVIDENCE of the SUBSTANCE of FAITH = THINGS not seen.

“faith is the substance of things hoped for”, the evidence of things not seen.
#6. and the EVIDENCE of the SUBSTANCE of FAITH = THINGS NOT SEEN!

So then we have: “FAITH is the SUBSTANCE of THINGS HOPED FOR, the EVIDENCE of THINGS NOT SEEN.”

You cannot taste, touch, feel, or SEE the THINGS (they are intangible) that make up the SUBSTANCE of "FAITH". You can, however, receive "FAITH" upon HEARING the word of God. As a matter of Scriptural fact this is the only way (today) that you can receive "FAITH"!

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

This is why the Holy Scriptures of Truth are so vitally important , because today in the United States they (the Scriptures) are not only being altered and changed by apostates; they are also being added to (the “traditions of men”) or being ignored by the so-called "Evangelicals" and “Fundamentalists”.

Hebrews 11:1 Now “faith” is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:2 For by “it” the elders obtained a good report.

So by “it” (faith) the elders (Old Testament saints) obtained a good report. [2Timothy 2:15]

Hebrews 11:3 Through “faith” we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Notice “things” again. There are “things” which are seen which are made of “things” you cannot see.

Hebrews 11:4 By “faith” Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Hebrews 11:5 By “faith” Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Hebrews 11:6 But without “faith” it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

NOTICE: Here then is the “importance” of “faith” (for all of mankind - extremely important!).

Hebrews 11:7 By “faith” Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by “faith”.

NOTICE: The “things not seen” – again [Hebrews 11:1].

Hebrews 11:8 By “faith” Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Hebrews 11:9 By “faith” he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Hebrews 11:11 Through “faith” also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in “faith”, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

NOTICE: “having seen them afar off” – is in reference to the “promises” not “things”.

Hebrews 11:17 By “faith” Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Hebrews 11:20 By “faith” Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

NOTICE: Those “things” – again.

Hebrews 11:21 By “faith” Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.

Hebrews 11:22 By “faith” Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

Hebrews 11:23 By “faith” Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.

Hebrews 11:24 By “faith” Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

Hebrews 11:27 By “faith” he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

NOTICE: Moses hadn’t “seen” God yet – However, he forsook Egypt by “faith” as if he had “seen” Him (that’s the essence of “faith” – not seeing, but still believing!).

Hebrews 11:28 Through “faith” he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

Hebrews 11:29 By “faith” they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

Hebrews 11:30 By “faith” the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

Hebrews 11:31 By “faith” the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

Hebrews 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33 Who through “faith” subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38 (Of whom the world was not worthy) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through “faith”, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

NOTICE: That “thing” – again.

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our “faith”; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Hebrews Chapter 11 certainly gives us the “definition” of “faith and the “importance” of “faith”; but more than these two very important points – it gives us illustrations of HOW “faith” works and demonstrates “faith” in operation so that we: “through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.”

REMEMBER: the “things” hoped for? [Hebrews 11:1]

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Thomas needed to see in order to believe. The Lord Jesus Christ rebukes Thomas for being "faithless" (John 20:27). He was not talking about a "lack" of “faith” - He was rebuking Thomas for having NO “FAITH”. He refused to believe the disciples words (the record - the words of God). In John 20:29 the Lord clearly states: "because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." Thomas refused to believe by "faith" - he insisted (required) on "seeing", and when he "saw" he believed. Those of us who have heard the word of God and believed have done so by "faith", without seeing. There is a difference - the Lord Jesus Christ said so. (John 20:29)

John 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Thomas was "faithless" and refused to "believe" unless he could actually: "see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe." (John 20:25)

The Bible states quite clearly HOW faith comes:

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So then, Thomas refused to hear the words of God (the disciples' testimony), and in doing so he refused to believe (by "faith"). Instead he insisted on SEEING before he would BELIEVE - Again "FAITH" had nothing to do with his believing - IF "faith" cometh by hearing the word of God - which since the Scriptures declare it to be so - I accept the Bible record with no emendations, subtractions, or additions.

Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.

Originally Posted by George

Aloha all,

I'm new to this forum and have browsed around it reading most of the posts.

#1. Have you ever read any of the many books, commentaries, booklets, pamphlets, etc. that brother Ruckman has written? (And if so - how many? You don't have to list the names just the number -I'll trust you to be honest and truthful).

#2. Have you ever heard any of Peter Ruckman's numerous preaching and teaching tapes? (If so - how many? You don't have to list the names just the number -I'll trust you to be honest and truthful).

#3. Have you ever actually met brother Ruckman or been at any of his meetings where he has either preached or taught the word of God? (If so - where and when? I'll trust you to be honest and truthful).

The reason I put these questions to you is quite simple. I don't trust hearsay! After being saved for 50 years and having attended various churches and dealing with "all kinds" of Christians, sad to say, I don't trust Christians to judge matters the way that our Lord commanded us to Judge. (Matthew 7:1-2; John 7:24).

After a suitable amount of time I will truthfully answer all 3 questions myself and then make my comments.

George

1. Read two of his books: Manuscript Evidence and Biblical Scholarship
2.Zero
3.No

[Renee]

Originally Posted by Biblestudent

5.

Biblestudent,

Thomas had no faith when he said he will not believe UNLESS he sees.
Thomas had no faith when he Saw Christ. He knew.

My bible tells me I will see our son when I get to heaven becaiuse he has received the Lord as his Saviour. I only have God's Word to rely on: By FAITH in Gods Word I believe will see Duke in heaven. When I get to heaven I will no more need faith in this matter, I will see Duke.

The Lord gavet and The Lord taket away.

[Biblestudent]

So it's clear that Thomas did not have faith before He saw Christ, but after he saw Christ, he had faith. So he had faith after sight.

Now what if after he saw Christ, he would still refuse to believe? Is Thomas still expected to have faith after he had seen Christ? Or, is he no longer required to have faith since he had already seen Christ?
If he had not faith before sight, did he have faith after sight then?

How about the Jews who had seen Christ's miracles, and yet they did not have faith? Are they expected to have faith after they had seen Christ's miracles, or are they expected to have faith "only" before they had seen them?

I have no problem accepting that faith has to do with things unseen, but I don't think it is limited to that. For example, in the Dispensation of Innocence, faith in God's Word is required of Adam even if he has seen the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or even if he has not seen death. In the Dispensation of the Kingdom, people who have seen the King still has to have faith in God's Word for that age. My belief is that faith [and blood] is required in every dispensation. Faith is believing the Word of God, whether one has seen what He said or not.

[Biblestudent]

I think John 20:29 gives us the two definitions of faith:

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Is "believe" (verb) the same as "faith" (noun)? I have encountered people here (actually my classmates in Bible school) who seems to over divide the word to the extent of saying that "believe" is not "faith". My answer was of course they are different parts of speech. One can not say:
"Thomas faith in Christ", but
"Thomas believes in Christ";
nor can a person say, "
Thomas has no believe", but:
"Thomas has no faith".

So, if believe and faith mean the same, except that one is a verb and the other is a noun, then according to Jesus Christ:
Thomas believed (verb) because he has seen (verb); or Thomas had faith (noun) after he had sight, or
Thomas had belief (synonym of faith) after he had vision (synonym of sight).

[Biblestudent]

Originally Posted by Biblestudent

So it's clear that Thomas did not have faith before He saw Christ, but after he saw Christ, he had faith. So he had faith after sight.

Renee, I don't think Thomas did not have faith after he has seen Christ, for Christ said Thomas "believed" after he had seen Christ.