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#11
09-30-2008, 10:23 AM
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Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ brethren.
I was a pre-trib dispensationalist for quite a few years.I decided one day to research why I believe this.After my study,I came to the conclusion,that pre-trib is not taught in the Scriptures unless one ignores {2nd Peter 1:20}. You see the Roman Catholic church was viewed as an Anti-Christ system by the pre-1800 Puritans.The reformation Puritans all knew very well,that one day in the future that the one of the Roman Popes would no doubt be human flesh possessed by Satan himself. It seems that in the 1530`s that a Roman Catholic by the name of Ignatius Loyola who formed the society of Jesus {i.e.Jesuits}ordained by the Pope at that time had to form a interpretation of the Scriptures to take the popish system out of the scope of prophecy.The epistles of Paul make it very clear what a real Jew is and there is not but one plan of salvation and a future for fleshly Israel and fleshly Gentiles and that sir is Christ and His crucifixion and Resurrection. Zionism is a conspiracy that has been ongoing since then.When John Nelson Darby introduced the doctrine he had this to say. Although premillennial thought has been recorded in the early church, dispensational theology and its pursuant eschatology are new, as even the father of the system admitted -"I think we ought to have something more of direct testimony as to the lord's coming, and its bearing also on the state of the church: ordinarily, it would not be well to have it so clear, as it frightens people. We must pursue it steadily; it works like leaven, and its fruit is by no means seen yet; I do not mean leaven as ill, but the thoughts are new, and people's minds work on them, and all the old habits are against their feelings - all the gain of situation, and every worldly motive; we must not be surprised at its effect being slow on the mass, the ordinary instruments of acting upon others having been trained in most opposite habits." - LETTERS OF J.N.D., vol.1 pg.25-26 Scofield in his reference Bible page 989 had this to say: Quote: Therefore,in appraching the study of the gospels the mind should be freed,so far as possible,from mere theological concepts and presuppositions.Especially it is necessary to exclude the notion-from post apostolic and Roman Catholic theology-that the Church is true Israel,and that the Old Testament forview of the kingdom is fulfilled in the Church. Unquote: Mr Scofield is deceiving people to say this was a Roman Catholic concepts.Post Apostolic yes.Mr Scofield was not a DR and according to the qualifications to care for the Church of God,he was highly unqualified and untrustworthy in his doctrines. Research also shows dispensationalism along with millerites-campbellites-JW`s ect were all launched as an attack on Christianity in the 1800`s I conclude: #1.Dispensationalism has severe errors that is a Conspiracy launched as a counter attack on the reformation by the Roman Catholic Church along with a conspiracy to destroy the KJV and to slowly lead to a one world translation. Many are not aware but the Roman Catholic Church is using dispensationalism to help them gain control of Jerusalem that will bring a rebuilding of the Temple and the reinstitution of Old Testament sacrifices when Anti-Christ in the pope will demand worship and declare he is God. As long as the Pope is in the vatican he is out of the scope of dispensational prophecy. God bless you all. Brother Miller. |
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#12
09-30-2008, 10:33 AM
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Darby never introduced the Doctrine of pre-tribualtion translation, it was taught by men well before his time.
I will assume that you are another one that is suggesting that we, those brothers and sisters that believe in the "Blessed Hope" are under some form of deception by the devil? |
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#13
09-30-2008, 11:22 AM
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Isaiah 65:20
There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. 21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. 22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. 24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD. Where do all the people come from if all the Saints are translated at the end of the Tribulation? Who enters Bodily into the Kingdom if everyones gone ? Zechariah 8:5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof. Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints. Where is the mention of the "translation" where is the mention of being "caught up" ? AS Brother George posted back, on this thread or another I cant be sure as I write this, Tribualtion is The time of Jacobs trouble. Jer 30:7-11 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him ... Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished. How can the Translation and the setting up of Christ's Kingdom be simultaneous? its impossible. Matthew 25:31,32 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory. And before him shall be gathered all nations Where do the Judgment Seat Of Christ and the Marriage supper fit in, they dont , they dont fit into a mid or post trib translation ONLY a pre-trib. |
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#14
09-30-2008, 12:33 PM
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Hummm
Quote:
Sorry about the length. 1. Rapture" the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is only an 200 year old idea. Up until the time of Darby and others, the church believed that Jesus would return at the end of the tribulation. The view became popular amoung Baptists in Europe and later in the US. It gained great popularity with the introduction of the Scholfield Bible and Dispensational theology. Now having said that, there are different views on Christ's second coming and the rapture. First of all, the word rapture doesn't even appear in scripture. The word means to be caught up. I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture. I am a post-trib person myself. I will give you the 14 reasons people believe in Pre-trib and some arguements by a scholar as to why it is not true. Common Pre-Trib Arguments We've listed 14 common arguments that pre-tribbers use to justify the pre-trib rapture. VII. Arguments for Pre-Tribulation Rapturism Let s take em one by one. As you will see, the reasons for pre-tribulation rapturism is based on weak inference, and not sound biblical interpretation. 1) The Absence of the Word Church in the Book of Revelation Pre-Tribbers say that because the word Church is not used after Revelation, Chapter 3, the Church therefore cannot be in the 70th week. It is mentioned 19 times in Chap 1-3, but never again in the book. In response to this argument, while it is true that the word Church is not used after Chapter 3, the word saint is used numerous times throughout Revelation. This same word is used all throughout the New Testament to speak of those in the Church. Additionally, the Church is not mentioned in Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 & 2 Peter, 1 & 2 John, Jude, and not until the 16th Chapter of Romans. Quoting Robert Gundry, "Unless we are prepared to relegate large chunks of the NT to a limbo of irrelevance to the Church, we cannot make the mention or omission of the term "church" a criterion for determining the applicability of a passage to saints of the present age". 2) Revelation 4:1 Although many pre-tribbers do not use this argument, it is still taught by some so it warrants a brief discussion. Let's read Revelation 4:1. After this I looked and, behold, a door was opened in heaven; and the first voice that I heard was, as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up here, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter. -- Pre-Tribbers say that since John hears a trumpet and is called up to heaven, this represents the rapture. -- This interpretation is a perfect example of inference and without biblical justification. To equate Rev 4:1 to the rapture would be like adopting an allegorian method of interpretation--which pre-tribbers would normally reject. I ve only brought this argument up because it is frequently used to support pre-trib. It is very, very weak. My response back though is this: John does not maintain his heavenly viewpoint throughout Revelation (10:1, 11:1, 13:1, 14:1, 18:1). If John, who is representing the raptured Church in Rev 4:1, why does he keep going back and forth from heaven to the earth? In other words: "What's good for the goose is good for the gander." If the absence of the "Church" from earthly scenes were to imply an absence of the Church down here, then the absence of the "Church" from heavenly scenes would imply an absence of the Church up there. 3) God has not Appointed Us to Wrath The pre-tribber believes the Church will not go through the wrath of God, and since they believe the entire 70th week of Daniel is the wrath of God, the Church, therefore, will not be in the 70th week. First of all, the bible never says we won't see his wrath, just that we are not appointed unto it. The Pre-Wrath view believes the Church will be raptured just before it, and the Post-tribber believes she will be protected through it. I personally don't have a problem with either view. The first point of contention is not whether we go through God s wrath, but will we personally experience it? And the clear biblical answer is absolutely not (1 Thes 5:9)!! The second point is when does that wrath begin? Contrary to what pre-tribbers believe, the Bible clealy teaches that the Wrath of God (The Day of the Lord) begins after the midway point with the opening of the 7th seal. Again, the rapture occurs in conjuction with the Day of the Lord. So, if the Day of the Lord begins inside the 70th week, then the rapture also must occur inside the 70th week. We must remember that there are varieties of distresses during the 70th week: evils and violence which stem from man's rebellion against God, Satanic and Demonic forces allowed to oppress the earth under God's permissive will, persecution of the saints, God's direct wrath upon sinners, and the chastisement and eventual salvation of Israel. 4) The "Gap" Argument There are some pre-tribbers who want to say that the Day of the Lord begins after the sixth seal, but still the rapture occurs 5 or 6 years earlier. I call this the Gap theory. They use the passage in Gen 7:4 to try and prove this. They explain the gap theory this way: God told Noah to gather the animals, get in the ark, and then in seven days he would send the flood. They then say that since Noah entered the ark 7 days before flood began, this represents the rapture of the Church well before the Day of the Lord begins. There are 3 major problems with that: 1) Where does it say that in verse 4? Could it mean also that God was telling Noah he had seven more days of preparation before the flood waters would come? The verse here is just not clear. So if the a word or verse is not clear, the next step is to look at the entire passage. 2) The passage seems to be very clear as we read further. Look at verses 12,13. It appears here to be saying that Noah entered the same day as the rains came? Is there still a doubt? Let's compare scripture with scripture. 3) The gap theory contradicts the words of Jesus. Jesus plainly said that on the same day that Noah entered the ark, judgment came and took them all away. How clearer can you get? This is a perfect example of twisting scripture to fit a theological view? Remember our rules of interpretation? First look at the verse, then look at the context, then compare scripture with scripture. So when we do that, the Gap theory becomes just another view that is unsupported and without exegetical support! 5) The "Sack Lunch" Argument Pre-Tribber's believe that the marriage supper of the Lamb begins prior to the 2nd coming of Christ at Armeggedon. Since this is so, the Church must be raptured well before this event to allow time for the supper. They refer to the marriage supper of the Lamb in a Post-trib rapture scenerio as a "sack lunch". First of all, this is an absolutely ridiculous argument because it limits God to temporal time. We must understand that God exists in an eternal state where there is no time. In 2 Peter 3:8, the bible says that one day to the Lord is as a thousand years. Even if the rapture occurred just prior to Armeggedon, a one second delay between the rapture and his coming could very easily be enough time to complete the marriage supper of the Lamb. Secondly, and more importantly, the passage describing the marriage supper of the Lamb (Rev 19:6-10) does not locate it in heaven or during the 70th week. It is in conjunction with the second coming of Christ. To use the argument that the Church must be raptured prior to the 70th week to allow time for the marriage supper is totally without biblical support. 6) The "Yo-Yo" Argument Pre-tribbers frequently mock Post-tribulation by saying that the view believes in an up and down rapture, thus the yo-yo simile. They say that it ridiculous for the Lord to call Christians to himself in mid-air only to come right back down. Why not have the Lord just come down to the earth and meet us down here? This is a silly man-made argument. First of all, the Lord can do whatever he wants--He is soverign. If he wants to rapture the Church in this manner, He can do so. Who are we to question his methods? Secondly, we can use the same silly argument to refute Pre-tribulationalism. Why does the Lord have to meet us halfway? Why have him come in the skies, only to go back up to heaven? Why not have him just wait in heaven for us to meet him? So long as there is a meeting in mid-air, someone has to turn around and go back. See how ridiculous that sounds? Thirdly, a Pre-Wrath rapture has the Lord rapturing the Church on the same day the Day of the Lord begins which is before his physical return. There is no quote, unquote "yo-yo" rapture with this view. By the way, it was common in New Testament days for a representative portion of citizens to go out of their city a distance, meet a dignitary, and give him honor by escorting him back into the city. A similar escorting of Christians coming with our Lord certainly would fit into a Post-Trib rapture view. Anyway, you can see the extent that Pre-tribbers go to defend their position. They use silly arguments which try to put God in a man-made theological box. God is God and will do whatever he pleases, however he pleases! 7) The Blessed Hope Pre-tribbers rightly say that the return of Christ is the blessed hope (Titus 2:12-13). They question, however, on how the return of Christ can be a blessed hope if the Church must first experience the wrath of the Tribulation period? Again, there is no scriptural basis for such an argument. It is based purely on emotionalism and human reasoning. But I will use the opposite extreme. I say that the blessed hope is more blessed if we are going through difficult times than when things are going well. Persecution has always been good for the Church. And it is in difficult times, not fat times, that we experience real closeness and intimacy with the Lord. But the reality is, although the Church will go through persecution, it will be temporary, and our relief will come when Christ returns in glory--and that is a blessed hope! 8) Imminence As we discussed earlier, pre-tribbers believe in imminence, that is, the return of Christ would be signless, no prophesied events before it, and could occur at any moment. Let's look at the scriptures they use to defend this position. -- Let me give you the classic text which pre-tribbers use to base their imminence theory on. Turn to 1 Thess 5:2 (read). Well, Ken, doesn't that sound like an any moment return of Christ? Wait a minute--let's continue on. Read verses 3-6. Christ s return will be any moment for those who are not watching, but not to the believer. We are to be watching. For that day will not take us by surprise. That is what Paul is teaching!! -- Turn to Luke 17:26-30 (read) The world will be partying and carrying on, and just like the days of Noah, Christ s return will be imminent because they were in darkness and were not watching. But Paul says that we should watch and be sober so that day will not catch us like a thief. Now, let's look at the passages that Dwight Pentecost uses to prove imminence: John 14:2-3 -- Does this passage teach that the rapture is without a sign, without a preceding prophesied event, and any moment? NO! But let me quote Tim Lahaye from his book "No Fear of the Storm", "The promise that our Lord could appear any moment to take His Church up to His Father's house was delivered by the Lord Himself (see John 14:1-3)." Am I missing something here? Where does the text say here that this is an any moment event? Acts 1:11 -- Does this passage teach that the rapture is without a sign, without a preceding prophesied event, and any moment? NO! 1 Cor 15:51-52 -- Does this passage teach that the rapture is without a sign, without a preceding prophesied event, and could occur at any moment? NO! It does say it will occur in a moment, not any moment! Phil 3:20 -- Does this passage teach that the rapture is without a sign, without a preceding prophesied event, and could occur at any moment? NO! Col 3:4 -- Does this passage teach that the rapture is without a sign, without a preceding prophesied event, and could occur at any moment? NO! 1 Thess 1:10 -- Does this passage teach that the rapture is without a sign, without a preceding prophesied event, and could occur at any moment? NO! 1 Tim 6:14 -- Does this passage teach that the rapture is without a sign, without a preceding prophesied event, and could occur at any moment? NO! James 5:8 -- Does this passage teach that the rapture is without a sign, without a preceding prophesied event, and could occur at any moment? NO! All James is saying is that the coming of the Lord is near. 2 Pet 3:3-4 -- Does this passage teach that the rapture is without a sign, without a preceding prophesied event, and could occur at any moment? NO! 1 Thess 5:6 -- Does this passage teach that the rapture is without a sign, without a preceding prophesied event, and could occur at any moment? NO! In fact, this is a strike against pre-trib rapturism. Paul is telling us to watch for the Day of the Lord, an event that occurs after the cosmic signs AFTER the Great Tribulation. Titus 2:13 -- Does this passage teach that the rapture is without a sign, without a preceding prophesied event, and could occur at any moment? NO! The common argument here is that if the Church is to go through Daniel's 70th week, then we would be looking for antichrist, not Christ. In Matt 24, Jesus makes it very clear that to look for the signs of His coming is the same as looking for His coming. The coming of antichrist is simply one of the signs of Christ's coming. So what am I saying? The bible simply does not teach imminency. What it does teach is expectancy!! Every one of us should live as if Jesus could return in our lifetime, that we could be the very generation that would see the signs of his return. Now, let s look at some specific arguments against imminency. -- First of all, pre-tribbers believe that Jesus could return at any moment. Turn to John 21:18. Here Jesus was telling Peter how he would die. He was telling him that he would live to be old and be martyred. Question: Did Peter believe that Jesus could come back any moment?? -- Turn to Malachi 4:5 (Read). It is very clear that Elijah must come before the Day of the Lord begins. In fact, even today, when Jews celebrate passover, there is an empty cup set for the prophet Elijah, and an empty chair set at every Jewish boy s circumcision. Most pre-tribbers believe that the Day of the Lord starts at the beginning of the 70th week. If Elijah must come before the Day of the Lord, and the rapture occurs simultaneously with the Day of the Lord, then imminence is destroyed because there would then be a prophesied event which needed to occur before Christ could return. Dwight Pentecost, understanding this problem, tries to resolve it by suggesting that the Day of the Lord is a series of mini-days, and somehow Elijah gets sandwiched in between a couple of them--thus allowing it to be said that Elijah appears before the Day of the Lord but inside the 70th week of Daniel. Not only does this have no biblical merit, but it is contrary to the biblical teaching that the Day of the Lord is a comprehensive, singular period. -- Turn to Luke 21:5-7, 20-24. This passage is foretelling the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple as mentioned in Daniel 9:26. Jesus was saying that before his return, Jerusalem would be destroyed and be trampled down by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled. When was Jerusalem destroyed? (70 AD) So it was impossible for an any moment coming because a prophesied event had to occur (the destruction of the temple). -- Turn to Deut 30:5. This is describing the return of the Jewish people to the land of Israel after the dispersion. When did the dispersion begin? (70 AD) When did Israel become a nation again? (1948) All pre-trib rapturists believe that before the end could come, Israel had to become a nation. They believe that was absolutely essential before the end could come. Question: If that is so, and I strongly agree, how could Jesus have returned at any moment between 70 AD and 1948? You couldn t believe in imminence before 1948! Is that not a prophesied event that had to occur before the return of Christ? Hal Lindsey compares the fig tree in Matt 24 to Israel. He stated that when Israel became a nation in 1948, that event set the prophetic scene into high gear. He stated that the generation that saw Israel become a nation again, would be the generation that would see the return of Christ. So by his very words, he destroyed imminency. Because if one prophesied event has to occur before Daniel s 70th week, then imminency has no foundation. So, does the New Testament teach imminency?? It can t. There are prophesied events that have to occur before his return. And Jesus himself was asked what was asked "What would be the sign of your coming", and he answered them by giving them what? SIGNS! That's the fallacy with this view. There is no way Jesus was teaching imminence because several signs had to occur prior to his coming. Imminence is a man-made doctrine with no biblical substance whatsoever. Could the 3rd century believers have seen Israel become a nation again, and expect Jesus to return in their lifetime? Yes. Could the 11th century believers have seen Israel become a nation again, and expect Jesus to return in their lifetime? Yes. What about the 17th century believers? Yes. And can we expect Jesus to return in our lifetime? YES! The return of Israel as a nation is not the only thing that must occur prior to the Day of the Lord. The coming of Elijah must occur before the DOL (Mal 5). Cosmic disturbance must occur before the DOL (Rev 6). The sealing of the 144,000 must occur before the DOL (Rev 7). The apostasy must occur before the DOL (2 Thes 2). The revealing of the Antichrist must also occur before the DOL (2 Thes 2). -- Sensing the enormity of the problem, some pre-tribbers have suggested that there is a period of time between the rapture and the start of the Day of the Lord to allow time for these predicted events to occur. Where is that in the bible? They are grasping at straws and there is absolutely no biblical basis to put any amount of time between the rapture and the Day of the Lord. The bible teaches expectancy, not imminency. Jesus said, when you see all these things, know that my return is at hand. We are to live with the expectation that Jesus could return in our lifetime, and we should live in light of that expectation (holiness). Now, it s going to seem like I m contradicting myself, but the bible does teach a point in time when his return will be at any moment, without any sign, and with no prophesied events to be fulfilled. Anyone know when that is? It is when the last sign will be given. READ Matt 24:30. Then and only then will his return be imminent. At that point, as Luke 21:28 says, look up and lift your heads for your deliverance is drawing near . 9) Imminence and Holiness Pre-Tribulation rapturists contend that anything but a pre-trib rapture gives the Church a license to sin. They say that the imminent return of Christ is the single most important motivator that the Church has for holiness, and without it, the Church will simply not live the way she ought until she sees the signs of the end, and then she will repent. Although I admire the desire to preach holiness, the return of Christ is not the single most important motivator for holiness. The most important reason we should live holy simply is because we love Him. Christ said very clearly in John 14:21 that if we say we love Him, then we will keep his commandments. I personally believe that the pre-trib rapture view does not motivate to holiness, but rather gives believers a false sense of security that they will escape hard times. This is true, especially for American Christians, where there is no choice between are faith and our physical lives. I believe this view encourages apathy and laziness rather than holiness and watchfulness. Lastly, while it is true, that the bible clearly exhorts us to live holy in the light of his return, again--the bible does not teach imminence as taught by pre-tribbers. The bible teaches expectancy--that is, we are to live expectantly in the light of his soon coming return. We are to be awake, sober, and watching for his return. 10) No Man Knows the Day or the Hour Pre-Tribbers say that if you believe the Church will endure the tribulation, then you will know exactly when Christ will return, thus violating the passage in Matt 24, where no man knows the day or the hour. -- First, the bible teaches that the rapture will occur somewhere in conjunction with the Day of the Lord. We know from Matt 24:29, that the Day of the Lord begins sometime in the 2nd half of the 70th week, after the Great Tribulation. -- Second, remember that Jesus us tells us that the Great Tribulation will be "cut short" for the sake of the elect (Matt 24:21-11). We have absolutely no idea when that will be. -- And lastly, his coming (parousia) does not include just his physical return. It includes many things including his judgment (the Day of the Lord). And that will be anytime after the 6th seal. 11. Dispensationalism (the Nature of the Church and Israel) By far, the biggest argument for pre-trib rapturism is the strong belief in dispensationalism. If you remember, we defined dispensationalism as the belief in a separate Israel and a separate Church. The pre-tribber would contend that since the Church was not around during the first 69 weeks of Daniel s prophecy, it will not be in the 70th week of Daniel. In other words, pre-tribbers believe that the 70th week is the dispensation specifically for Israel. So, if the 70th week is a time when God deals with his chosen people, the Church cannot be a part of it. In response, a fair question should be asked. On what basis can it be argued that since the Church was not in the Old Testament, it can t be in the 70th week? Certainly not on the basis of the Bible! Again, the problem with this argument is that it has no biblical support. The premise is correct, but the conclusion is wrong. The Church did not exist before Pentecost, so it couldn t be in the OT. The Church does exist now, however, so it can be in the 70th week. And that s exactly what the bible teaches which I believe has been clearly shown. First, with the birth of the Church (Acts 2), God did not stop his working with Israel. Bible scholars have always looked at the book of Acts to be a book of transition from Israel to the Church--from the age of law to the age of grace. The first converts were Jews (Acts 2). Early believers continued to go to the temple for worship (Acts 3:1). Secondly, it would be impossible to defend the position that a Jewish man, who was deemed righteous and acceptable before God under the OT economy the day before Christ died, was unrighteous and rejected the day after Christ s death. The period after the death and resurrection of Christ was the passing of the old economy to the new one--but both economies co-existed for a period of time. -- The 70th week will be exactly the same. It will be a transitional period, in reverse this time, from the Church to Israel. As Israel entered the Church age, the Church will enter the 70th week. -- The Church will enter the 70th week and co-exist with Israel. God will have purposes for both, cleansing for the Church and judgment and salvation for the Jews. Then both will live and reign with Christ forever. -- One more argument on whether the Church and Israel can co-exist together. What will be the current state of Israel during the 70th week? (Unsaved) What is the current state of Israel now? (Unsaved) And right now the Church and Israel co-exist together, right? The problem with this argument is the extreme that pre-tribbers go to protect dispensationalism. I am a strong dispensationalist, but that does not mean that dispensationalism automatically exempts the Church from the 70th week. Again, we must not base our theology on what we think the bible says, but what the bible actually teaches. And clearly the bible teaches that the Church will enter the 70th week. 12) Rev 2-3 (Periods of Church History) The Pre-Trib argument is that the seven churches in chapters 2-3 of Revelation represent seven distinct periods of Church history. Gary Cohen outlines his view on this: Ephesus--The Apostolic Church (AD 30-100) Smyrna-- The Persecuted Church (AD 100-313) Pergamos--The State Church (AD 313-590) Thyatira--The Papal Church (AD 590-1517) Sardis--The Reformed Church (AD 1517-1730) Philadelphia--The Missionary Church (AD 1730-1900) Laodicea--The Apostate Church (AD 1900- ) Therefore, according to Cohen, when we reach Rev 4:1, Church history is complete and the Church is raptured before all the events in Revelation. Well, again, this view has some serious flaws. 1) First of all, there is nothing in this text that indicates these are periods of Church history, nothing! 2) Secondly, this view is totally subjective. Who determines when a period begins and ends? Church history is not that clear cut. 3) Third, the terms given to the seven churches do not fully conform to everything that is written in the letters. For example: the Church in Thyatira gets higher marks from Jesus than history gives to the papal Church. Conversely, the Church of the reformation age is graded considerably higher than Jesus grades the Church of Sardis. Well, how then should these 7 churches be understood? Simply as this: The seven churches were real, historical churches that represent all churches throughout history, not periods of Church history. Revelation is a prophetic book about end times. Everything in this book is prophetic, including the first 3 chapters. -- Frequently in the bible, current or even historical events are addressed and then linked to future events. For example: in Matt 10:1-15, Jesus sends out his disciples to minister throughout Israel. He told them what to take, what to say, and what to expect. Then without any noted interruption, he began speaking about the end of the age. He told them that in that future day, he would give them words to speak and what the results would be. -- Another example: Daniel wrote about Antiochus Epiphanes who would persecute the Jews and defile their temple in 168 BC (Dan 11:21-35). He then uses this historic event to describe the antichrist and what he will do to the temple (Dan 11:36-45). We are to look at the seven churches in Revelation in the same exact way. These were actual historical churches which had certain strengths and weaknesses. These are the exact strengths and weaknesses the Church will have as she enters the 70th week. Look at the prophetic words given to these churches: First, look at the promises to the overcomers: 2:7, 2:11, 2:17, 2:26, 3:5, 3:12, 3:21. Second, look at the references to Christ s near coming: 2:5, 2:16, 2:25, 3:3, 3:11, 3:20. Third, look at the references to patience (which is translated: endurance under affliction): 2:2, 2:19, 3:10. Fourth, look at the warning to the church of Sardis: 3:1,3 -- Pre-tribbers do not look at these as warnings to the Church while they are in the 70th week, but see them simply as periods of Church history. They do this simply to sustain pre-tribulation rapturism. But to do this ignores the clear and direct warnings given to the churches, and it avoids the urgent warnings to be ready, and exhortations to endure to the end. And by the way, if you take this viewpoint, then you destroy imminence. Because in order for Christ to return, you must have every one of these Church ages take place. Christ cannot return until the Laodicean age. In addition, pre-tribbers will say that the Church of Laodocia is one of apathy and lukewarmness which will mark the characteristics of the Church before the return of Christ. One question: Why should Christ come back to take an apathetic, lazy, coldChurch away from a period (Great Tribulation) which not only will prepare her for His coming, but will separate the true believers from false ones? This makes absolutely no sense. Let's look at the scriptures literally, and not assign subjective rationales to them which have no biblical basis. 13) Rev 3:10 Second to the dispensational argument, Rev 3:10 is what pre-tribbers hang their hats on. Let s read it. Pre-tribbers will say that since Jesus says that "I will keep thee from the hour of testing", then we are exempt from the 70th week of Daniel. Again, if we look at Rev 2-3 in context to the prophetic nature of the book, it is clear that Christ is warning the churches to prepare and to be overcomers during the 70th week. But what about this tough verse? -- Robert Gundry, a post-tribber, says that Rev 3:10 is the most debated verse in the rapture discussion. Many see 3:10 as the key in understanding the rapture issue. Some go far to say that this verse is the watershed verse that divides the different positions. We need to be very careful to base a biblical viewpoint on one scripture. There are men who take one or two passages in the bible and say that a believer can lose their salvation. But clearly, as a whole, the bible teaches that a believer s salvation is secure. So what do we do? We take those few debatable scriptures and reconcile them to what the bible on the whole teaches concerning eternal security. The same rule applies here. On the surface, it appears that Rev 3:10 is saying that the Church is not to go through the great testing, but what about the tens of other passages (which we have looked at), that indicate otherwise. So we must therefore reconcile this one difficult passage with what the bible says on the whole concerning the rapture of the Church. -- As we have shown in other instances, what a text appears to be saying in English is not at always what it says in the Greek. -- The phrase in question is the phrase keep thee from . Pre-tribbers would say that clearly says removal from. But is there another possibility? The Greek word used is the word tereo . It can carry the idea of protecting someone while he is in the sphere of danger. But there is a tiny word used in conjunction with this word tereo. It is the Greek work ek. This word is in direct contrast to another preposition apo. Apo means kept outside of, while ek means within the sphere. It is this preposition ek that is used in conjunction with the word tereo--so we have the word tereo ek. Alexander Reese says this about Rev 3:10: "The use of ek in Rev 3:10 distinctly implies that the overcomer would be in the hour of tribulation; the promise refers either to removal from out of the midst of it, or preservation through it." -- The only other use of in the NT is found in John 17:15. -- Jesus here makes a clear distinction between removal from the evil one and preservation from the evil one. His prayer was not that they would be taken out of the world, but preserved from the evil one while in the world. So while Greek scholars are definitely not in agreement, there is strong evidence to suggest that Rev 3:10 is not referring to a removal before the testing, but either a removal while in it or a protection while within it. Again, any unclear verse must be compared with other passages talking on the same subject that are clear. So although, on the surface, Rev 3:10 appears to be saying one thing, it actually could mean just the opposite--when considering the original Greek and comparing it with other passages such as John 17:15. 14) The restrainer in 2 Thess 2:7 Read 2 Thess 2:7,8. Who is the restrainer? Most pre-tribulation rapturists believe the restrainer is either the Church or the Holy Spirit--with the majority leaning toward the Holy Spirit. Their explanation goes something like this: the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, and antichrist cannot be revealed until the Spirit is removed. Since the Spirit indwells all believers, then when the Holy Spirit is removed, so is the Church. This viewpoint lacks solid biblical support. To my knowledge, there is no verse in the bible that calls the Holy Spirit a restrainer of sin, and certainly in this passage there is no indication of this. But there is one being in the bible who is specifically called a restrainer. Turn to Dan 10:12,13 (Read) Scholars agree that this verse is talking about Michael the archangel. In his relationship to Israel he is called Michael your prince (look at verse 21). The word holdeth in the Hebrew can be translated restrainer. Daniel, the prophet, is told that Michael is the great prince who standeth for the children of thy people (look at 12:1). Both Christian and Jewish scholars believe that Michael, the archangel has a special guardian relationship over the children of Israel. Look at Jude 9. In the Midrash, a Jewish book of interpretations, it says this about Michael, "The Holy One, Blessed be He, said to Michael, you are silent? You do not defend my children." Now remember we said that at the midpoint of the 70th week, there was a war in heaven? Remember? And who did the war involve? (Michael and Satan--Rev 12-7-17) And do you remember immediately what Satan did after he was thrown to the earth? (He persecuted the woman, verse 13). Go back to Daniel 12:1. The phrase stand up can be accurately translated stand aside or to be inactive (this according to Rashi--one of Israel s greatest scholars). Michael, in chapter 10:13,21, had earlier fought for Israel, but now is stepping aside or is inactive as a restrainer. When, according to 12:1, does this happen? (at the midpoint) How do we know this? Look at what he says: After Michael steps aside, there will be a time of trouble, such as never was... Does this sound familiar? Look at what Jesus says after the Abomination occurs (Turn to Matt 24:21). There is no doubt what is happening here. Michael (Israel s protector) will fight with Satan casting him down to the earth. He will step aside at the midpoint of the 70th week, and allow Satan to indwell the antichrist, cause him to desecrate the temple, and then severely persecute Israel (and us by the way). Now, lets go back to 2 Thess 2:7 (READ) The word hindereth means to hold down, and the phrase taken out of the way means to step aside. So according to Paul here, the restrainer, will continue to restrain, until he steps aside--exactly what Daniel tells us will happen! And according to Paul, when does this happen? Look at the context. It s when antichrist exalts himself in the temple, precisely in the middle of the 70th week. No, there is no evidence that the Holy Spirit, the Church, or human government is the restrainer. But as I have shown, there is strong evidence to suggest that the restrainer that Paul is speaking of, is none other than Michael, the archangel. II DO THEY KNOW??? Most Baptists have no idea how they got to the current theory of pre-trib rapture. Most ministers just believe it and have never really studied it. ALso the "Left Behind" series has just solidified this view in the minds of most Baptists. Now I obviously do believe that Jesus is coming again. I just disagree as to when that is going to happen. III. Does God punish us for every thing we do wrong???? Well let's look at the larger question of God and man. Why do we die? The Bible says, "It is appointed for men to die" Hebrews 9:27. Yet when it occurs, people have difficulty in accepting the reality of the event. Paul called death "the last enemy" 1 Cor. 15:26. He also taught that death entered the world as the result of sin, Romans 5:12. If there had not been sin, there would have been no death, Romans 5:17. Death is more than a natural phenomenon: "The soul who sins shall die" Exek. 18:4 When Paul describes death as receiving the "wages of sin," he means much more than its inevitable consequence Roman 6:23. Death is God's verdict upon human sinfulness Romans 1:23. Jesus Christ conquered death when He overcame sin and the devil. Spiritually, believers have already passed from death to life John 5:24, and the broken relationship with God has been restored. Believers still face the weakness and pain that accompany dying, but they need not be afraid of death itself. Jesus Christ the victor will finally overcome the last enemy also 1 Cor. 15:26, 54-57. Our penalty for sin is death. Sin is the reason we are condemned to Hell. The only way to go to heaven is to have that sin forgiven. The Bible says the only way to do that is to have salvation through Jesus Christ. In fact, the Bible says no one or other way is available for salvation except Jesus. John 14:6 “Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” You cannot get to God except through Jesus. How are we saved? God wants you to know that you are a sinner and cannot save yourself. "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) God wants you to know that Jesus Christ has already provided the way of salvation. "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but will have everlasting life." (John 3:16) You must repent of your sins, confess them and forsake them. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (I John 1:9) God wants you to know that acceptance or refusal determines your destiny. "Everyone who has faith in the Son has eternal life. But no one who rejects Him will ever share in that life, and God will be angry with them forever." John 3:36 “Those who call upon the name of the Lord, will be saved Romans 10:13. “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast.” Eph. 2:8 If you wish to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior of your life, then you must pray to God and let Him know that you believe, you repent of your sins, you ask for forgiveness, and you ask Him to save you and be your Lord (Master). A Prayer would go something like this: "Dear God, I believe Jesus died on the cross for me and is alive today. I know I am a sinner. I am sorry for my sin. Please forgive me. I want Jesus to live in me as my Savior and Lord. Thank you for hearing me. In Jesus' name. AMEN." All those who are saved go to heaven. All those not saved, go to Hell. It is that simple. Remember, God does not send anyone to hell because they never heard of Christ or never accepted Him. He sends people to Hell because they have sinned. Romans 3:9-12 tells us “What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." Even a Child knows the difference between what is right and wrong. As an adult, we cannot say that we are ignorant of what is right and what is wrong. The judgment for sin will be in relationship to how much they knew. A person growing up in the U.S. with a church on every corner will be judged more harshly than someone who never even heard the name of Jesus. But even someone who grew up in an uncivilized jungle knows in his conscience that there is a god that is worthy of worship. The Bible says his conscience will either accuse him or excuse him on the day of Jesus Christ. God is not going to condemn people if their own consciences excuse them. Regretfully, every human being has sinned against his or her own conscience. God does not judge people for failure to believe in Jesus, but because they are sinners. The Bible says that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." What about those people in the Old Testament? Before Jesus came to this earth, it was faith that put people in right standing with God. Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. (see Hebrews 11) Original sin is the term for being born a sinner. Remember, man was created in the image and likeness of God. Man was a free moral agent, freely able to choose God or turn away from him. By eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he did the one thing he was asked not to do. Breaking God's one commandment to him was sin. At that point Adam and Eve were driven from the Garden of Eden and cut off from the tree of life. From that moment on, the spirit of man was damaged. It is as if man is now born with a moral handicap. He is lame in the most important part of his being- his spirit. That is original sin. There is a rebellious nature in most children. They just like to do whatever you tell them not to do. This natural rebellion stems from man's original sin. Instead of being morally free, man has a decided tendency toward sin - urged on toward evil by what is called "the world, the flesh, and the devil." Original sin is a tendency to do evil, not an act of evil itself. God does not punish people for tendencies to do evil, only for what evil they do in light of what they know. In other words, babies and children do bad things but do not truly understand the difference between good and evil. They may even know that what they are doing is wrong, but they do not understand that it is evil. Therefore, little babies and young children do not go to hell because of original sin, because babies have never committed any sinful acts. So babies do not even need to be baptized until they are old enough to choose Christ and baptism themselves. Baptists believe that once you are saved you are always saved. That accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Savior and believing in Him means you go to heaven. Nothing else will give you salvation. We believe that you are saved forever because: 1. there is security because of God's Promises (Romans 8:31-39), 2. God's presence assumes security (John 10:27-30 & John 3:16), 3. Because of God's power the believer is kept (1 Peter 1:3-5), My wife and I adopted a child. We have come to love her just as we love our other 2 children. Can you imagine that we would stop loving her just because she did something wrong or was disobedient to us? When you are saved, you are adopted into the family of God. You must, out of your love for God, try to live a Godly life. Acts of sin or rebellion will take away the joy of salvation. When David committed adultery with Bathsheba and had her husband killed, he lost the joy of his salvation. When he wrote Psalm 51 about it, he said, "Restore to me the joy of Your salvation." He had no joy, because he had rebelled against God. He did not lose his salvation, only the joy of it. Jesus said in John 10:29 that "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand." Once you belong to God, you can never be taken away. There is a difference between being immature in Christ (that is still sinning) and rebellion (those who sin without salvation). However while a person can not lose his salvation, a person can openly denounce God. If a Christian were to become a Muslim or a Satanist, then they are publicly and spiritually saying that they denounce their salvation. Hell is both physical and spiritual. It is a place and not simply a condition. It is the place where all those who have refused the gift of salvation from Jesus Christ go upon death. Jesus presented it as a place of eternal torment for the devil, his angels, and the sons and daughters of Adam who rejected him and his sacrifice for their sins. It is a place of damnation where the fire is not quenched (Matt 23:33; Mark 9:48). Their soul leaves their body and descends into the physical place hell. Now, at the end of time in Rev. 20:11-15, all those who died without Christ will rise from the dead. Their literal bodies will reform and stand before God in judgment. Then their bodies will join their souls in hell for eternity. It has been said that if Jesus is not God, then we should worship the man who thought him up. Never has anyone in history spoken the way he did. I see that the teachings of Jesus are self-validating. Throughout history, they have been proven true over and over again. When the teachings of Jesus are put into practice, they lead to peace, harmony, victory, and love. This does not mean His teachings do not bring conflict. For evil will always fight against the truth. Jesus' words pulsate with wisdom. For example, about governments "Give to Caesar the things of Caesar and to God the things of God." The teaching that God the Father is a Spirit, not a man or woman. The Sermon on the Mount has a treasury of wisdom, "Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you." Remember, "Love your neighbor as yourself." Ultimately, I know that Jesus is God. The only true God. I know this because of the Holy Spirit. The Bible tells us that our faith is foolishness to those who do not believe. When I accepted Christ into my life, the Holy Spirit of God became a part of me. I can feel His power. I know the truth as He reveals it to me. It is an overwhelming knowledge, joy, and peace. Most other faiths cannot claim that they have true joy and peace. I have been with a lot of people when they have died. I have noticed that Christians seem to die at peace. But non-Christians fight, and fight, and fight to their last breath and still die unhappy. |
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#15
09-30-2008, 01:04 PM
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Did you answer my question in all of that previous.
Do you think that anyone who believes in a pre-tribulation rapture, had been deceived by the devil? I have no care for what a scholar thinks, I am asking what you think. Quote:
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#16
09-30-2008, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Me believing a Scholar?Ha ha.What do you think scofielism and Darbyism is?.I will take God`s Word on it and if you ignore {2nd Peter 1:20}only then can a pre-trib be fabricated.History reveals the pre-trib is a Roman Catholic Jesuit conspiracy.I think many will fall away when they find themselves in the great trib they dont believe they will go through. God bless. |
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#17
09-30-2008, 03:15 PM
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I have never read scofield, I have never read Darby, to be honest I dont care much for any of those sorts, I have only read the Word Of God. That is my final authority, for ALL matters of Faith and practice.
You still haven't answered my question, you have hinted at it from the Jesuit angle, but you haven't honestly answered it. Do YOU believe that the pre-tribulation translation of the Church is a deception of the devil, and that all us silly pre-tribbers are decieved? |
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#18
09-30-2008, 03:40 PM
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Actually, the RCC, after influence of the gnostics, were the ones under Constantine who exchanged the divine program of a returning Lord for a world conquering church.
George Peters documents the overwhelming pre Chiliastic postion from the 1st century on in The Theocratic Kingdom. Those who attest pre trib to Darby as a recent theory are just parroting and perpetuating falsehoods. |
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#19
09-30-2008, 03:49 PM
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Me to.
Quote:
I believe the same way you do.You know our Lord`s disciples ask the question. Matt 24:3.Tell us,when shall these things be?and what shall be the sign of thy coming and of the end of the world? What will happen before Christ return and the sign of His return? Then Jesus says from Matt 24:29 Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS {Ect} And then in verse 30 following {And THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN of the Son of Man in heaven;and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Jesus said He would return after the tribulation after the sign of His coming appears. What saith Paul in Holy Scriptures when Christ would return? Paul said not to let anyone deceive us concerning Christ return. Pre-Tribbers says Christ could return any minute.Well what saith the Scriptures? When will Christ return? In 2nd Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you,brethren,BY THE COMING OF THE our Lord Jesus Christ,AND BY OUR GATHERING together unto Him. Ok paul starts 2nd Thess 2:1 in reference to the Coming of our Lord,and what must take place before our Lord doth come in v3 2nd Thess 2:3 LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU BY ANY MEANS,For that day SHALL NOT COME,Except there come A FALLING AWAY FIRST,{NOTE:}AND THAT MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED,THE SON OF PERDITION. Ok we are being deceived to believe Christ returns before Anti-Christ the man of sin comes.Pre-Trib puts the Anti-Christ showing up after the Rapture Paul said Christ coming and our gathering unto Christ would be after the man of sin is revealed. 2nd Thess 2:8 Christ will return to destroy Anti-Christ with the brightness of His coming when we are gathered unto Christ {i.e.post-trib} It doesnt take a rocket scientist to see this.Is thus saith the Scripture really what pre-trib`s believe? I was amazed at how I believed the things I did.Its like scholars are telling us no its pre-trib even though its not real clear.Oh yes Mr Scholar its real clear to me when Christ returns. I believe thus saith the Scripture over what the Tim Lahaye`s say. Pre-Trib violates {2nd Peter 1:20} I have heard many Scholars even like Grant Jeffrey say,the pre-trib water is not clear.I say brother Jeff it is to muddy for me.Better be prepared my belief is the Tribulation is in our life time. God bless. |
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#20
09-30-2008, 03:53 PM
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Still no answer to my question. Why do you not want to answer it?
Do YOU believe that the Brethren who put their "Hope" in the pre-tribulation translation of the Body Of Christ are deceived by satan? I also put absolutely NO stock in what Tim Lahaye says either, as his books have the Pope and mother teresea raptured. |
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