[George]

Originally Posted by Scott Simons

OH by the way do you reckon that the ten virgins are metaphors for Christians?

Aloha brother Scott,

I do not believe that the ten virgins have anything to do with born-again saints of God; the church of God; or the "rapture" of the entire "body of Christ.

Wow, what do you believe then?

I have a question? If someone can loss their salvation, how does it happen? If a lost person is drawn by the Holy Spirit; through God's mercy realizes that he is a sinner before a Holy, Soverign, God; understands that there is a penalty for sin: death; repents of his sin; trusts in Jesus' substitionary attonment for salvation; and surrenders his life to Jesus, how can this person loose this salvation? If someone can lose their salvation doesn't this mean that they are more powerful than God?

In answer to your question, Scott, yes a Christian can be decieved. I honestly believe that there is deception in the minds of the people who believe that someone can loose salvation. By the way, the reason we can be deceived is because the part of us that gets saved is our spirit. That part of us that is dead when we are born, because of Adam. Our soul contains our mind, will, and emotions. That is the area that we battle our flesh and Satan on a daily basis. That is the area that can be decieved. Our spirit is sealed until the day of redemption. That's why Paul says that he sins with his body, but obeys God through the spirit.

[George]

Originally Posted by Scott Simons

OH by the way do you reckon that the ten virgins are metaphors for Christians?

Answer by George Anderson

Aloha brother Scott,
I do not believe that the ten virgins have anything to do with born-again saints of God; the church of God; or the "rapture" of the entire "body of Christ.

Posted by Scott Simons

Wow, what do you believe then?

Aloha brother Scott,

The following is a very short explanation of what I believe in relation to the ten virgins of Matthew Chapter 25.

BEFORE I BEGIN - A SHORT SYNOPSIS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT CANON IS IN ORDER:

The Four (4) Gospels reveal the 4-fold ministry of The Lord Jesus Christ - spoken of in the Old Testament as "Branches":

MATTHEW = CHRIST as The KING {Jeremiah 23:5-6; Zechariah 6:12; Isaiah 4:2 <>MATTHEW 2:1-2}
Jeremiah 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

Jeremiah 33:15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.

Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

THE FULLFILLMENT:
Matthew 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.


MARK = CHRIST as My Servant {Zechariah 3:8 <> MARK 10:45}
Zechariah 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

THE FULLFILLMENT:
Mark 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, butto minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.


LUKE = CHRIST as the Man {Zechariah 6:12 <> LUKE 9:56}
Zechariah 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

THE FULLFILLMENT:
Luke 9:56For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.


JOHN = CHRIST as GOD {Isaiah 4:2 <> JOHN 1:1}
Isaiah 4:2 In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.

THE FULLFILLMENT:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

An interesting and corresponding study should be made of the Four (4) Cherubs in the Old Testament (Ezekiel), and the Four (4) Beasts in the New Testament (Revelation) – Why FOUR? Look at their FACES: a Man - a Lion – an Ox – an Eagle (Ezekiel), and a Lion – a Calf – a Man – an Eagle (Revelation). I don’t fully understand the import or connection between these “exact duplications”, but I do know that the Faces match up perfectly with the Four-Fold Ministry of our Lord and Saviour and visa versa – That’s why there are only Four Gospels and not Three (or less) or Five (or more)! Christ = The King (the Face of a Lion); Christ = the Man (the face of a Man); Christ = the Servant (the Face of an Ox-Calf); Christ = GOD (the Face of an Eagle).

Outside of the Gospels, the rest of the New Testament is a commentary on: the Lord’s Ministry here on earth (His Life; His Death; His Resurrection); His Ministry since the Resurrection {In Heaven}; His relationship to the church and to the believer {As Head}; and His promised return {Soon – I hope!}. The Books of Acts, The Epistles, and Revelation were written to explain why the Lord Jesus Christ came; why He did what He did; and why He is coming back to set up His Kingdom.

Not until God called the Apostle Paul and revealed His perfect will (the "mysteries") to him, did men know the full meaning of the Lord’s Death, His Shed Blood, and His Resurrection (known as The Atonement).

Aquila and Priscilla had spiritual discernment and straightened Apollos out on his doctrine: [Acts 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.] It’s not that Apollos was teaching “false doctrine” – he was teaching God’s truth that was no longer in effect, and Aquila and Priscilla brought him up to date, i.e. “the way of God more perfectly”!

Peter understood that there was a difference from the “present truth”, that he understood and taught at the time that he wrote his Epistle, and the truth that he preached in the Book of Acts, Chapters 1-9 {The difference between God dealing with the Nation of Israel (Acts, Chapters 1-9); and the calling out of the Gentiles i.e. God dealing with individuals – Jews & Gentiles alike (Acts, Chapters 10-28 & beyond)}.
[2 Peter 1:12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.] Paul had to straighten him out [Galatians 2: 11-21] on at least one occasion concerning the revealed will of God.

I have presented this short “Synopsis”, because The Scriptures are spiritually discerned [1 Corinthians 2:1-16 (vs. 14)]; “rightly dividing the word of truth” involves knowing, discerning, understanding, and wisdom – all of which must come from God.

With the foregoing in mind, let’s look at the Scriptures – keeping in mind some very basic scriptural principals for “rightly dividing”:

Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

The following are some very basic scriptural principals and precepts for “rightly dividing the word of truth”:

All Scripture has 3 applications:
#1. Historical
#2. Spiritual
#3. Doctrinal

Like the “Wise Old Owl” we should be asking:
WHO – Said that?
WHO– Was he speaking to?
WHO– Does this apply to?
WHO– Should follow and obey?
WHO– Is this written to?

In the study of the foregoing verses of Scripture, in order to “rightly divide” the verses into their “Historical”, “Spiritual”, and “Doctrinal” settings, it must first be determined:

WHO is Speaking - {The Lord Jesus Christ – Before His Death, Burial, & Resurrection; before the setting aside of the nation of Israel; before the establishment of the church. As of yet no one is "born again", because Christ hasn't established the New Testament by His shed blood, death, burial, and resurrection - there are no Christians present and the New Testament church is not yet in existence.}

WHO is He Speaking to – {to Jews-Hebrews-Israelites, (not to the Gentiles; and certainly not to Christians or to the New Testament church, since neither exist at this time) who are looking for and expecting their King and the “kingdom of heaven”}

WHO does this apply to – {The Jews-Hebrews-Israelites of Christ’s day (and very probably in the Great Tribulation); Remember, although the Bridegroom was present – the “Bride” of Christ (the body of Christ-the church) was not yet present. [Matthew 9:15; Mark 2:19; Luke 5:34] The ten virgins are NOT the “Bride” of Christ - nowhere are they referred to as "brides", they are called "virgins", for that matter (He isn’t going to have 5-10 wives! He has only ONE wife!}

WHO should follow and obey – {The Jews-Hebrews-Israelites of Christ’s day (and very probably in the Tribulation).

WHO is this written to – {To the believing Jews (first) and also to the believing Gentiles – for our “learning”. [ROMANS 15:4; Romans 1:16; Romans 3:2] According to the Scriptures - the Jews-Hebrews-Israelites of Jesus’ day were expecting “the kingdom of heaven” {a “term” peculiar to the Book of Matthew (The Gospel about the KING OF THE JEWS!) and found nowhere else in Scripture}. They must have understood what Jesus was referring to – even if most Christians don’t understand it today. These verses concerning the ten virgins are in relation to Jews-Hebrews-Israelites in the “kingdom of heaven” [Matthew 25:1] – they have no relation to the church or to Christians.

The term "kingdom of heaven" can only be found in the Book of Matthew (no where else in the entire Bible can this term be found). Look up all of the verses:
[Matthew 3:2; 4:17; 5:3,10,19-20; 7:21; 8:11; 10:7; 11:11-12; 13:11,24,31,33,44-45,47,52; 16:19; 18:1,3-4,23; 19:12,14,23; 20:1; 22:2; 23:13; 25:1,14;]

Historically – These verses applied to the Jews-Hebrews-Israelites of Jesus’ day.

Doctrinally - These verses applied only to the Jews-Hebrews-Israelites of Jesus’ day {And very probably to the Jews-Hebrews-Israelites during the Tribulation} – These verses are NOT to be applied to the “Bride” of Christ (His body-the church).

Spiritually – These verses might be used to teach Christians that we should be prepared to meet our Lord and Saviour – but they should NOT be used to teach us that the ten virgins are the “Bride” of Christ (the church-His body), because, as I said before, The Lord Jesus Christ has only One “Bride” (One Wife - Just like Isaac, who was His “Type” in the Scriptures.). He is not like Muhammad, who was a polygamist with multiple wives!

I cannot cover this subject in depth (my posts are too lengthy as it is). I hope this very short explanation will help you to understand how I study the Bible, and how I reach the conclusions and understanding of the Scriptures that I do. This method of Bible study is called “rightly DIVIDING the word of truth”. If a Christian does not “rightly divide”, he has no sure way of discerning Bible truths and more often than not, much of the Bible will remain a “mystery” to him.

[chette777]

George,

Excellent work there in that study of the ten Virgins.

I agree with all you shared, the rightly dividing and the three types of application.

I hope others were as encouraged as I am for rightly dividing the word of truth

To God be all glory for all you have shared.

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by spiritualcrusader

I have a question? If someone can loss their salvation, how does it happen?

he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered;

If a lost person is drawn by the Holy Spirit; through God's mercy realizes that he is a sinner before a Holy, Soverign, God; understands that there is a penalty for sin: death; repents of his sin; trusts in Jesus' substitionary attonment for salvation; and surrenders his life to Jesus, how can this person loose this salvation?

Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

If someone can lose their salvation doesn't this mean that they are more powerful than God?

If your premise was correct the question would be applicable, if God was forcing us to be saved, then there is nothing we can do but be saved. But if God is allowing us to be saved, then that is a different story.

I appreciate your infusion on deception, as well of your insightful questions.

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by George

Originally Posted by Scott Simons
Answer by George Anderson
Posted by Scott Simons
Aloha brother Scott,


WHO is Speaking - {The Lord Jesus Christ – Before His Death, Burial, & Resurrection; before the setting aside of the nation of Israel; before the establishment of the church. As of yet no one is "born again", because Christ hasn't established the New Testament by His shed blood, death, burial, and resurrection - there are no Christians present and the New Testament church is not yet in existence.}

WHO is He Speaking to – {to Jews-Hebrews-Israelites, (not to the Gentiles; and certainly not to Christians or to the New Testament church, since neither exist at this time) who are looking for and expecting their King and the “kingdom of heaven”}

WHO does this apply to – {The Jews-Hebrews-Israelites of Christ’s day (and very probably in the Great Tribulation); Remember, although the Bridegroom was present – the “Bride” of Christ (the body of Christ-the church) was not yet present. [Matthew 9:15; Mark 2:19; Luke 5:34] The ten virgins are NOT the “Bride” of Christ - nowhere are they referred to as "brides", they are called "virgins", for that matter (He isn’t going to have 5-10 wives! He has only ONE wife!}

WHO should follow and obey – {The Jews-Hebrews-Israelites of Christ’s day (and very probably in the Tribulation).

WHO is this written to – {To the believing Jews (first) and also to the believing Gentiles – for our “learning”. [ROMANS 15:4; Romans 1:16; Romans 3:2] According to the Scriptures - the Jews-Hebrews-Israelites of Jesus’ day were expecting “the kingdom of heaven” {a “term” peculiar to the Book of Matthew (The Gospel about the KING OF THE JEWS!) and found nowhere else in Scripture}. They must have understood what Jesus was referring to – even if most Christians don’t understand it today. These verses concerning the ten virgins are in relation to Jews-Hebrews-Israelites in the “kingdom of heaven” [Matthew 25:1] – they have no relation to the church or to Christians.

The term "kingdom of heaven" can only be found in the Book of Matthew (no where else in the entire Bible can this term be found). Look up all of the verses:
[Matthew 3:2; 4:17; 5:3,10,19-20; 7:21; 8:11; 10:7; 11:11-12; 13:11,24,31,33,44-45,47,52; 16:19; 18:1,3-4,23; 19:12,14,23; 20:1; 22:2; 23:13; 25:1,14;]

Historically – These verses applied to the Jews-Hebrews-Israelites of Jesus’ day.

Doctrinally - These verses applied only to the Jews-Hebrews-Israelites of Jesus’ day {And very probably to the Jews-Hebrews-Israelites during the Tribulation} – These verses are NOT to be applied to the “Bride” of Christ (His body-the church).

Spiritually – These verses might be used to teach Christians that we should be prepared to meet our Lord and Saviour – but they should NOT be used to teach us that the ten virgins are the “Bride” of Christ (the church-His body), because, as I said before, The Lord Jesus Christ has only One “Bride” (One Wife - Just like Isaac, who was His “Type” in the Scriptures.). He is not like Muhammad, who was a polygamist with multiple wives! [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]

Aloha George,

I appreciate your insights on how you rightly divided the word. I did go look at you web site, I saved in my favorites for future reference. You have done a lot of work.

You have raised a few questions, that I though I would explore with you.
Did Jesus come to start a church? Or a new church?
When did the church first start?

[George]

Aloha George,

I appreciate your insights on how you rightly divided the word. I did go look at your web site, I saved in my favorites for future reference. You have done a lot of work.

You have raised a few questions, that I thought I would explore with you.
Did Jesus come to start a church? Or a new church?
When did the church first start?

Aloha brother Scott,

I will answer your questions as soon as possible.The first two are fairly basic - the last one has been the subject of debate for centuries, so I will "give it a try", knowing full well that better men than I have "tried" and come up with various answers.

Great I will forward to hearing from you

Aloha George,

How things going on the church?