The word "meat" in 17th century English meant "food" generally speaking. It's not used that way in modern English, but it's understood in context. The word "house" is used still in modern English to mean the people or things inside a house; that's normal usage.

And the word "wine" means "wine." "New wine" is a specific phrase that refers to the unfermented juice. At the wedding in Cana I believe that what Jesus made was wine, plain and simple. It doesn't say "new wine". Do you honestly believe the practice at a wedding party in that time was to serve grape juice?

Lee

[Diligent]

Doesn't John 2:10 make it clear what is meant by "wine?" In reading what the Bible says about wine, it is clear that drunkenness is sin ("And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess" Eph 5:18; "given to wine" Ti 1:7; "excess of wine" 1Pe 4:3). But you really have to do some fancy acrobatics to turn wine into "grape juice" in passages like John 2, and what meaning does Romans 14:21 have if drinking wine is sin? We can't say drinking grape juice is a stumbling block to someone, can we? And is drunking much grape juice a sin (1Ti 3:8)? No? So why does it say much wine if what is meant is any wine?

Let's honestly examine scripture and use it to shine the light of truth on our traditions.

[Debau]

Originally Posted by LeeM1023

And the word "wine" means "wine." "New wine" is a specific phrase that refers to the unfermented juice. At the wedding in Cana I believe that what Jesus made was wine, plain and simple. It doesn't say "new wine". Do you honestly believe the practice at a wedding party in that time was to serve grape juice?

Lee

Jesus could not have drunk alcoholic wine at the wedding feast, or He would have been disobeying the Bible commands concerning kings and princes.

Proverbs 31:4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink


Jesus is King, and the Prince of Peace

Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Jesus is the KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS, and
He is The Prince of Peace. If He drank wine or strong drink,
then He would have disobeyed the Bible command for
kings and princes — which would have made Him a sinner.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

If Jesus was a sinner, then He could not be our Savior. He would have had to die for His own sins, because the Bible says in
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Proverbs 23:20 says that we are not to be “among winebibbers"

Proverbs 23:20 Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh:

If Jesus would have been at a wedding
reception where people were drinking alcohol, then He would have been
disobeying the Bible. That would make Him a sinner, and unable to be our Savior.

Proverbs 13:20 He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

The Bible says that a companion of fools shall be destroyed. It also says that people who drink wine and strong drink are not wise. Now if someone is not wise, what is he? A fool. The Bible tells us that a companion of fools shall be destroyed, and that people who drink alcohol are fools. So that means if a person hangs around people who drink liquor, then he will become a fool himself.

If Jesus had made alcoholic wine for a bunch of people who had already been drinking so much of it that they were drunk, then He would have been helping a bunch of drunk people get more drunk.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

The Bible says that the drunkard shall not inherit the
kingdom of God. If Jesus helped a bunch of drunk people
get more drunk, then He would have been helping send
people to hell by His miracle. If Jesus was doing things to help
send people to hell, then He was clearly sinning. If Jesus
sinned, then He could not be the Savior of the world.

Luke 19:10 says that Jesus, the Son of man, came “to seek and to save that which was lost.”

Jesus did not come to help send more people to hell — they do a good enough job of that themselves. He came to save people from their sins.

According to John 3:17, “God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”

It is very serious to say that Jesus made alcoholic wine for people that were already drunk. He did no such thing. He longs that every precious soul would turn from his/her sin to Him, and be saved.

(courtesy Brother Austin)

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by Debau

Jesus could not have drunk alcoholic wine at the wedding feast, or He would have been disobeying the Bible commands concerning kings and princes.

John 2 does not say Jesus drank any of the wine he made. (It also does not say "new wine," not that the new/old wine thing has anything to do with whether or not it is alcoholic.)

If Jesus was a sinner, then He could not be our Savior. He would have had to die for His own sins, because the Bible says in
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Proverbs 23:20 says that we are not to be “among winebibbers"

1. It also says not to be among "riotous eaters of flesh." If people who drink any amount of wine are winebibbers, then people who eat any meat are "riotous eaters of flesh" -- have you been to some of these old-fashioned Baptist pot lucks?

If Jesus had made alcoholic wine for a bunch of people who had already been drinking so much of it that they were drunk, then He would have been helping a bunch of drunk people get more drunk.

John 2 doesn't mention drunkenness. Are you assuming that?

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

It is indisputable that drunkenness is sin. It is also indisputable that it takes more than a small amount of alcohol to become drunk. Otherwise, I hope you are real careful about which cough medicine you buy.

It is very serious to say that Jesus made alcoholic wine for people that were already drunk. He did no such thing. He longs that every precious soul would turn from his/her sin to Him, and be saved.

John 2 doesn't say anything about drunks. It says "wine." So does 1Ti 5:23.

[Debau]

Originally Posted by Diligent

John 2 does not say Jesus drank any of the wine he made. (It also does not say "new wine," not that the new/old wine thing has anything to do with whether or not it is alcoholic.)

That's MY belief, as I'm sure it is many folks who read this do. Don't muzzle the ox, let him eat(drink) too.

1 Timothy 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.



1. It also says not to be among "riotous eaters of flesh." If people who drink any amount of wine are winebibbers, then people who eat any meat are "riotous eaters of flesh" -- have you been to some of these old-fashioned Baptist pot lucks?

Yes I have "chowed down". I think "riotiously" is the operative word here.

John 2 doesn't mention drunkenness. Are you assuming that?

I'm assuming Lee might be thinking "well drunk" may mean that. I believe that's "well filled".

John 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

It is indisputable that drunkenness is sin. It is also indisputable that it takes more than a small amount of alcohol to become drunk. Otherwise, I hope you are real careful about which cough medicine you buy.

I think you are right. It does take "more than a small amount".

John 2 doesn't say anything about drunks. It says "wine." So does 1Ti 5:23.

(cf. john 2:10 "well drunk".)

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by Debau

(cf. john 2:10 "well drunk".)

John 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

This is the "ruler of the feast" speaking as to the custom of holding back the worse wine (which would be newer, not older); it does not say the men were intoxicated, which was my point. This verse doesn't help the case that wine means grape juice, unless the ruler of the feast couldn't tell the difference between grape juice and alcoholic wine. Or are you are saying the Lord made grape juice that tasted like alcoholic wine? To what end?

It is not as if this is the only passage that is relevant here. Romans 14 is much more important since it is Paul speaking directly to our conduct:

Romans 14:21-23 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

It would strain credulity to call wine "grape juice" in this passage since there is nothing offensive to someone about drinking grape juice. Moreover this passage tells us how our conduct should be regarding this very issue. Adding rules about consuming wine goes beyond what Paul teaches here and is therefore legalism.

[Cody1611]

1 Timothy 3:
2 "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;"

If bishops are forbidden wine, then why should we as Born Again Christians drink wine period?

Luke 1:15 "For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb."

The above verse is talking about John. He never drank wine or strong drink. This leads me to think that the abstinence of wine will improve our spiritual life. Wine is for the flesh, not the spirit. Alcohol has brought so much death, so why even take a sip of it?

The word "wine" is used throughout the Bible and to define what wine means in different passages you will need much study and the Holy Spirit to lead you.

"Juice when newly expressed, and before it has begun to ferment, is called 'must', and in common language 'new wine'." Dr. Ure, Dictionary of Arts

"Sweet wine is that which has not yet fermented." Chamber's Cyclopedia 6th edition (1750)

"The juice or liquor pressed out of the ripe grapes is called vinum (wine)." Parkinson, Theatrum Botanicum

"When on the south coast of Italy last Christmas, I enquired particularly about the wines in common use, and found that those esteemed the best were sweet and unintoxicating...The Calabrians keeps their intoxicating and unintoxicating wines in separate apartments...I found that the unfermented wines were esteemed the most. Great pains were taken in the vintage season to have a good stock of it laid by." Captain Treat, in 1845, Dr. Lee's Works

From the above quotes, we see wine does not always contain alcohol.

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by Cody1611

1 Timothy 3:
2 "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;"

If bishops are forbidden wine, then why should we as Born Again Christians drink wine period?

The phrase is "given to wine," and five verses later, it says "given to much wine." (I hope you are not suggesting that the definition of wine changes in the space of five verses and that "much wine" means "much grape juice.") "Given to" is the key -- as in "given to hospitality."

Luke 1:15 "For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb."

The above verse is talking about John. He never drank wine or strong drink.

Clearly you are correct here.

This leads me to think that the abstinence of wine will improve our spiritual life. Wine is for the flesh, not the spirit. Alcohol has brought so much death, so why even take a sip of it?

Paul told Timothy to use "a little wine," and since grape juice is not used medicinally, and given the other uses of the same word by Paul, I can't abide by your declarations here. However, based on Romans 12, you should clearly not be drinking any alcohol at all -- and I have nothing negative to say about anyone who comes to that conclusion in their life. What bothers me is the condemnation of people who consume light amounts of alcohol (not to excess or drunkenness) when there is no basis for such blanket condemnation beyond traditions and culture.

The word "wine" is used throughout the Bible and to define what wine means in different passages you will need much study and the Holy Spirit to lead you.

You then proceed to quote several things that did not come from the Holy Spirit. I'm at a loss on how to deal with that, other than to suggest you Google "young wine" (in the same spirit you have offered your extra-Biblical authorities). Young/new wine is not non-alcoholic. But it is not my wont to offer extra-Biblical sources for understanding the Bible, which is why I have restricted myself to only comparing Scripture with Scripture. Nobody seems to want to explain to me how Romans 12 makes any sense if "wine" isn't wine.

[Cody1611]

My point with the quotes from people in earlier times is that sometimes we need to look back at history to see what the word meant back then. I agree with you though, we should define scripture with scripture. My apology.

[chette777]

FYI,

there is a table wine you can buy today it has a low alcoholic level between 2 and 4% it is used when eating and it is usually sweet. many families in europe use this wine regularly even in Christian home's. this type of wine would be difficult to get drunk on because you would need to dring an excessive amount. wine drank with meals has been proven to help in digestion of food.

Wine's like Merot, Cabernei Sauvenau (sp?) are strong wines usually around 12%alcohol level. these wine when drank in small amounts help in the blood circulation and apetite of sick people who are having a hard time with illnesses that effect the stomach. also this wine would kill amieba (sp) in the water that was being drank. most old world nations have water tables polluted with them. Even here in the Philippines there are areas where the water cannot be drank even from a closed deep well do to them. alcohol will kill them if mixed with strong wines. wines eventually will turn to vinegar if left to long.

Also the Bible tells us the strong drink is for the physically weak and those about to die. the reason is obveious it helps deaden the pain. also it was recommended Biblically to give to the one who was mourning or heart broken to help cheer them. the sin is not inthe drinking of wine it is DRUNKENESS.