[chette777]

it is too biblical just as Biblical as Kent Hovins. you just need to study it out more.

Plus IllusionZC should be allowed to see and hear all sides of this issue not just yours and Kents. without your subjective opinion about what others believe about a Gap theory that you have not researched.

By the way is not just my Theory or a theory of mine, it is held by many professing baptist, and Evangelical Christians and it has just as much Bible backing where Bible is clear as yours and Kents. so stop making it sound Like it is a fringe movement on the right (quoting Obamaites). it is a Gap Theory that is old earth, with a young (6000 year) creation on it. no evolution of species as one group has, Lucifer was created in the beginning at the time of the original Perfect Earth not during the 6 days creation of things pertaining to God new creation Man. for they were there when it was created perfect singing for joy in Gen 1:1.

Now without (I am withholding them) giving you the addresses you search out the scriptures I am referring to and read them carefully giving heed to the wording and chronological events around the words in those verse. and you can only come to one conclusion. there was something going one before the 6 day creation events in eternity past.

the area of what Lucifer was doing on the earth in eternity past is not so clear but knowing the whole purpose was for the Lambs Throne from Eternity puts most of it in perspective. this throne on earth is God original purpose for the Earth and it is Biblical for the out working of that is found throughout scripture. As God brought man intothepicture to chose out a people to seve both inthe Temple (Israel) and in Heaven (you and I).

that would make two Gap theories (the Christians Evolutionist hold one, and I, Baptist and Evengelical hold the other) out there, plus one no gap theory (kent). we don't argue that the current creation of earth is not young. We hold that the earthis older, and the 6day creation of the current state was done after Lucifers fall and Gods judgement onthe earth. that's why the earth was covered with water in Gen one verse two. two scriptures concernig the flood one refers to the judgement of the men at Noahs flood and the other to Lucifer's judgemntal flood.

[Winman]

First of all, I have been a student of Evolution for over 40 years, I am not new to this subject whatsoever. I do not believe in the Gap Theory, I believe the very simple and straightforward 6 days creation account in Genesis.

Genesis 2:1 is a continuation of Chapter 1 as indicated by the word "Thus".

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

And "and all the host of them" to me, says that the angels including Satan were included in the 6 day creation.

So I believe Satan fell sometime later. But Satan was still perfect on the 6th day.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

So, before Satan rebelled against God, he was perfect. So God could call his entire 6 day creation VERY GOOD.

As to the dinosaurs and such, I believe they lived with man. There has been much evidence for this, including recent discoveries of dino's with soft tissue. I also believe the dino's survived after Noah's time and this accounts for the many stories of dragons from many various civilizations across the centuries.

I do believe the early dinos may have been much larger, living many hundreds of years as the did the early patriarchs. Dinos after Noah's time may have progressively grown smaller as their lifespans shortened. And I think man himself killed off most of the dinos. Almost all stories of dragons tell of brave knights who went out to kill these dangerous monsters. Now, we have been taught from an early age that these stories were just myths, but men just a few hundred years ago took them quite seriously. That is the evolutionists who want you to believe the world is billions of years old and that the dinos lived over 75 million years ago, well before man (in their theory).

I happen to like Kent Hovind and have spent many hours watching his videos. I think he is a fantastic teacher and debater. I love the fact that he has taught and debated at universities across the nation. It is good to see young people who have been indoctrinated with the poison and lies of evolution see the truth of the Bible.

And you can bet he made lots of enemies in the secular educational establishment. I promise you, this had much to do with his legal problems. There were many folks in high places out to get him.

Now, I don't know about his tax problems personally, I doubt many really know. But the government is not supposed to tax the church, and I am sure this is where his problems probably arose. He probably felt he was not legally obligated to pay many of these taxes. And he could be correct. But there were very important people out to get him.

I would say to you that you should reexamine this Gap theory. It is not needed. The creation account is very straightforward and easy to understand. There is no Gap mentioned. The folks that believe in the Gap are falling for the false lie of evolution that the world is very old. So, they have to find a place to put these billions of supposed years of evolution.

But evolution is 100% false. The world is young.

[stephanos]

I am not going to argue the Gap theory here in this thread. I just would like to see people stick with the Scriptures in this thread. If there was a Gap, which there wasn't!, God left it out. So lets keep to the Sciptures that God gave us. Thank you.

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen

[chette777]

well you are welcome to your opinion Stephanos.

Not all of what Kent Hovin has presented is scripturaly based.

Study out all three views then decide. you haven't done that yet so don't make conclusions that he is right.

But to lead people to believe his view is the only view.

so I will say it again.

We do not believe in Evolution in any fashion

We believe in an old earth and Heaven that was perfect. Lucifer falls brings judgement on the earth i.e. why it is covered with water. 2Pe 3:5, 6 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: This is where The spirit of God was over the waters in Gen1:2

And we believe in a literal 6 day creation by God for his new purpose which included creatures and man. this is the world which we NOW live in and was later flooded again by God. floods were used in the Bible as judgements. 2Ptr3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept. There was no new creation of the world after the flood of Noah. But there was a new creation after the flood that destroyed the earth when darkness was brought into Gods perfect creation by Lucifer.

We believe that Reptiles though never mentioned in the 6 days creation directly, may have grown to large sizes during Adams life time along with trees and other things and animals until the flood. they are found in the fossil records.

We believe that if we are wrong no harm done for it is not essential to believe or not to believe in a Gap theory. this is just an amusing topic by which we as Brothers in Christ can enjoy fellowship and sharpen one another.

not attack each other Stephanos.

[chette777]

Winman,

Kent Hovin is not a church nor is his organization, Para church at best. Every person receiving money from a church or non profit organzation is supposed to report it as income (that would fall under Romans 13) whether on a W2 or 1040 or not. You must file if it is place on a W2 or a 1040 by the church or NPO. IRS is very clear on it.

Cash gifts deleivered to your hand by an individual as a gift do not count. but churches that collect money for missionaries and other groups and then pass it on to them MUST file a 1040 for the person or group receiving it. that is the law of the Governing authority. Also all employees and non employess receiving monthly or weekly allowances from the church or NPO, that is to be reported yearly on a W2 or 1040 form. and the person is required to file a tax form.

the IRS issue had nothing to do with the church but that those receving money through the non profit org who were not paying taxes. and the fact that his NOP didn't report that these peopel Himself and others were receving income from the org as prescribed by law of the governing authority show he was in clear violation of the Governing Authority.

I have no doubt people in high places were after him his teaching was 99% true. But if he had done things according to the LAW of the Governing Authority (Romans 13) he would have never got caught in disobedience.

But know this, Kent is also known for some Preterist views in some of his theology, and to be part of a movement to get America under Bible Commandments. (DeMarr's group)

Part of that movements view is not to pay taxes. First off, it is wrong for any Christian man to teach it, for it would place another Christian man under desobediane to Gods word in Romans 13 if he followed that teaching of not paying taxes.

I hope that clears up a little for you on the tax issue. the Moral of the Story stay in line with the Law so when they come they have nothing which to claim aginast you. but will praise you for being good. 1Pe 3:16 ¶ Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by chette777

Winman,

Kent Hovin is not a church nor is his organization, Para church at best. Every person receiving money from a church or non profit organzation is supposed to report it as income (that would fall under Romans 13) whether on a W2 or 1040 or not. You must file if it is place on a W2 or a 1040 by the church or NPO. IRS is very clear on it.

Cash gifts deleivered to your hand by an individual as a gift do not count. but churches that collect money for missionaries and other groups and then pass it on to them MUST file a 1040 for the person or group receiving it. that is the law of the Governing authority. Also all employees and non employess receiving monthly or weekly allowances from the church or NPO, that is to be reported yearly on a W2 or 1040 form. and the person is required to file a tax form.

the IRS issue had nothing to do with the church but that those receving money through the non profit org who were not paying taxes. and the fact that his NOP didn't report that these peopel Himself and others were receving income from the org as prescribed by law of the governing authority show he was in clear violation of the Governing Authority.

I have no doubt people in high places were after him his teaching was 99% true. But if he had done things according to the LAW of the Governing Authority (Romans 13) he would have never got caught in disobedience.

But know this, Kent is also known for some Preterist views in some of his theology, and to be part of a movement to get America under Bible Commandments. (DeMarr's group)

Part of that movements view is not to pay taxes. First off, it is wrong for any Christian man to teach it, for it would place another Christian man under desobediane to Gods word in Romans 13 if he followed that teaching of not paying taxes.

I hope that clears up a little for you on the tax issue. the Moral of the Story stay in line with the Law so when they come they have nothing which to claim aginast you. but will praise you for being good. 1Pe 3:16 ¶ Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

I am not concerned with what Kent Hovind does or did with the money that he was given by his supporters. Kent Hovind is not an idiot, and he doesn't seem like the kind of guy that would just blatantly ignore a rightly divided doctrine of the Scriptures. But anyways, the point I wanted to make (I really didn't want to get into it over this issue) was that I don't like the way you share the Gap theory so matter of factly. You are a very knowledgable Chette and some folks will believe what you say just because you said it. I'd like to see you keep that in mind when you share things like the Gap theory.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

[chette777]

that message was for Winman not you. and if you don't consider a mans character to matter much. well your in good hand s with Obama.

We are to be concerned with how men of God handle themselves for they cause people to blaspheme our Lord by their actions. and if they error in one place they could be in error in another

Why can I not share my View so matter of factly Kent Hovin Does (errors and all). you see it is not the Gap theory anymore with you it is who is saying it.

Well I pay my taxes Brother. I do my best to be sure if any Police, Sheriffs, Marshall's, IRS, FBI, CIA or SS agents come knocking because someone complains about me I have nothing to fear.

And go back an listen to Kent on his explanation for the firmament. he claims it is what separates our Atmosphere from outer space. funny though the scriptures say that the stars, moon and sun are spread out in the firmament not our Atmosphere.

[MC1171611]

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

(emphasis mine)

The "sons of God," the angels, were present when God created the earth (Gen. 1:1). The Gap has absolutely nothing to do with Evolution, unlike Kent Hovind's ramblings. He has some awesome stuff, but the fact that he has to run to "The Hebrew" to "explain" what "without form and void" means is retarded.

Genesis 1:1 - a single Heaven

Current universe - three Heavens

We've been over this before: either God created one heaven and a destroyed earth and proceeded to fix it and multiply the heaven into three, or there are things that happened that aren't directly delineated in the Genesis account of creation. The Book talks about the creation and re-creation in many places: that's part of Bible study.

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by MC1171611

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

(emphasis mine)

The "sons of God," the angels, were present when God created the earth (Gen. 1:1). The Gap has absolutely nothing to do with Evolution, unlike Kent Hovind's ramblings. He has some awesome stuff, but the fact that he has to run to "The Hebrew" to "explain" what "without form and void" means is retarded.

Genesis 1:1 - a single Heaven

Current universe - three Heavens

We've been over this before: either God created one heaven and a destroyed earth and proceeded to fix it and multiply the heaven into three, or there are things that happened that aren't directly delineated in the Genesis account of creation. The Book talks about the creation and re-creation in many places: that's part of Bible study.

First of all, I believe Kent Hovind is pretty secure in his faith that the King James is inerrant and infallible (he does push the KJB in EVERY video after all...). What he does is what we do when dealing with Bible correctors. We go to the Greek and Hebrew to shew that it is indeed flawless. Kent Hovind does this to shew that you can't go to the Hebrew to disprove a literal 6 day creation. Also, he wasn't the one that came up with the words "Unformed and Unfilled", Weston Fields did. Anywho...

All these points in support of a Gap have been Scripturally dealt with by Kent Hovind and a dozen other authors who don't subscribe to any Gap theory. But since this thread is about the three heavens, I'll address that subject from a non Gap theory, purely Scriptural point of view. (This is not going to be an attack on the Gap theory. This is meant to bring the thread back on topic)

First off, let's clear up one thing real quick. God made the heavens and the earth in six literal days.

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. (Genesis 1:31-2:1 KJV)

We can conclude from this passage of Scripture that God made the heavens (plural) and the earth (singular) in six days. Not only were the heavens and earth finished in these six days, but also the host of them as well. Then to satisfy another Gap theory point, He concludes that every thing that he had made was very good. This would include the host as well...

Secondly, God is a divider, in Genesis 1:1 God made one heaven with that one earth.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (Genesis 1:1 KJV)

He then divided this singular heaven:

And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. (Genesis 1:6-8 KJV)

So, here we see that God again divided the heaven further. And we can get a better idea of what one of these is with this verse:

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. (Genesis 1:14-16 KJV)

So as we can see, God put lights in the upper part (it's interesting how "he made the stars also" seems to be an after thought), therefore we can conclude the other heaven is the lower part, and is indeed our atmosphere...

And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. (Genesis 1:20 KJV)

... since fowl cannot fly in outer-space.

Now the third heaven is described as being above the dual heavens we've just addressed:

Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. (Psalms 148:3-4 KJV)

And that this third heaven is seperated from the other two by another large body of water, which is further defined here:

And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. (Revelation 4:6 KJV)

You know what else looks like crystal, and is still water? Ice. I believe that this sea of glass like unto crystal is a large body of ice which separates God's throne from the expanse of outer-space.

Well there you have it. A fairly simple, straight forward, and purely Scriptural explanation of the three heavens. I don't believe I've deviated from what is the plain text given in the KJB, and I don't believe I've allowed my theories to mingle with what is evident in these passages. I will add that there is much more to be said on this subject, and that yes, the Gappers do have some interesting ideas about some things, but they are unable to come to any conclusions without some serious stretching. My goal as a student of the Holy Bible is to not have to stretch anything in the Scriptures, but to simply read, understand, and believe what is plainly given.

Much Love in Christ,
Stephen

[Winman]

Chette

I have believed in a literal six consecutive 24 hour day creation since I got saved way back in 1964, WAY before the internet or before I ever heard of Kent Hovind. While I listen to many pastors and teachers, if it does not line up with the scriptures, I disregard it.

And that's the problem with the Gap theory. Folks allow so called "science" to intimidate them. I don't care what these "intellectuals" think, I listen to God's Word. But many are intimidated and try to reconcile the Bible with the false time scale taught by evolution. There is no gap mentioned in Genesis.