[jbh28]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

Hi Folks,

Right. And that difference is very substantial, since on top of Joshua and Caleb, there were young folks and woman and Levites (if I recall) who cannot be said to have rebelled. Also it is very significant in understanding the heart of God in the book of Hebrews.

The textual difference is in the accent marks and leads to the two opposite meanings. The difference will not show up on a letter-only text.

Shalom,
Steven

Thanks Steven. Is the accent mark what makes the difference of it being in the form of a question or not?

[Tmonk]

Here are some cross references related to Hebrews 3:16

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...38;&version=9;

[Tmonk]

Also some more info. W&H , Byzantine Majority and NA 26 are the same as the TR. Its translational like Steven said.

Heb 3:16
(KJV) For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

(NKJV) For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?

(NASB) For who provoked Him when they had heard Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?

(ASV) For who, when they heard, did provoke? nay, did not all they that came out of Egypt by Moses?

(DRB) For some who heard did provoke: but not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

(ESV) For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses?

(GNT-BYZ+) τινες γαρ ακουσαντες παρεπικραναν αλλου παντες οι εξελθοντες εξ αιγυπτου δια μωυσεως

(GNT-TR+) τινες γαρ ακουσαντες παρεπικραναν αλλ ου παντες οι εξελθοντες εξ αιγυπτου δια μωσεως

(GNT-WH+) τινες γαρ ακουσαντες παρεπικραναν αλλ ου παντες οι εξελθοντες εξ αιγυπτου δια μωυσεως

(HOT+)

(KJV+) ForG1063 some,G5100 when they had heard,G191 did provoke:G3893 howbeitG235 notG3756 allG3956 that cameG1831 out ofG1537 EgyptG125 byG1223 Moses.G3475

(NA26) τίνες γὰρ ἀκούσαντες παρεπίκραναν; ἀλλ' οὐ πάντες οἱ ἐξελθόντες ἐξ Αἰγύπτου διὰ Μωϋσέωσ;

[Steven Avery]

Hi Folks,

Hebrews 3:16 (KJB)
For some, when they had heard, did provoke:
howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

Young's Literal, since it generally follows the same text as the King James Bible, also has the sense ok.

Young
for certain having heard did provoke,
but not all who did come out of Egypt through Moses;

Note that the Latin line also had this right.

Rheims
For some who heard did provoke:
but not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

And similarly, all the historic Bibles had the proper sense, whether from the TR Greek or the Latin.

http://faithofgod.net/compare/Hebrews.htm
Wycliffe
For some men hearing wrathed [Soothly some hearing wrathed] ,
but not all they that went out of Egypt by Moses.

Geneva
For some when they heard, provoked him to anger:
howbeit, not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

Tyndale - (David Daniels modernised)
For some, when they heard, rebelled:
howbeit not all that came out of Egypt under Moses

Darby (DBY above) is written around 1870 (published later) and he mentions following Griesbach, Lachmann, Scholz, and Tischendorf, although his might be a hybrid version. Or the modern version error may not have been yet applied until Westcott-Hort. Not sure which, he is ok on the verse. It would be interesting to check and know when the modern error really began, although a bit on the techie side.

And for lots of techie stuff on this verse there was a long thread on the Fighting Fundamentals Forum, from accent marks to other verses with the same phrase to context to this and that. The thread also discusses a couple of other verses, however progress is slow when a forum is unmoderated and nonsense abounds.

Especially interesting is the commentary of John Owen, for whom Hebrews was a special interest .. also John Gill and Matthew Henry are helpful. Will Kinney has a summary in his article on the verse.

Shalom,
Steven

[Tmonk]

This is the word in question that changes the meaning of the verse in the Greek.

G235
ἀλλά
alla
al-lah'
Neuter plural of G243; properly other things, that is, (adverbially) contrariwise (in many relations): - and, but (even), howbeit, indeed, nay, nevertheless, no, notwithstanding, save, therefore, yea, yet.


When taking a second look at the translations I see the KJV making a statement, ending the sentence in a period. OK, but NKJV, NASB, ASV and ESV form a question thus not making a statement. They are not saying everyone that came out of Egypt, they are asking the question.

So what is proper, the statement or the query ?

[Brother Tim]

TMonk asked:

They are not saying everyone that came out of Egypt, they are asking the question.

So what is proper, the statement or the query ?

IF the word "indeed" had not preceded the question, then it might arguably be stated that a question was being asked. However, with the added introductory word, "indeed", the question becomes rhetorical, expecting a "yes" answer. The statement of the KJB is proper and correct. The rhetorical question of the NKJV is wrong, for it draws the wrong conclusion.