[Renee]

Hi Brother Tim,

I could never counsel a believer to marry or even court a non-believer

Neither would I Brother Tim. I'm only saying it is possible for that kind of marriage to work.

I would tend to say that the story told above was a very minority exception to the rule

There is hardly any difference in the divorce rate between two saved souls and two unsaved. I don't know the number of one saved soul and one lost soul so I cannot comment on that. Yes Brother Tim, our marriage may be in the minority, I know it has survived; "But by the grace of God".

There has been, like you said "many discords in this type of relationships" Our marriage has been through many of these discords and I thank God that He is able give us the grace and faith necessary to carry us through them. His Grace has been sufficient and I thank Him for it. I thank Him for Giving me a saved husband through whom I was sanctified, and the children given us that are also saved.

I do admit that it is easier in a household if it is the man that is saved, and the women is thought by example from her youth that he (the husband) is the head of the woman.

In Christian Love,
Renee

[Brother Tim]

I do admit that it is easier in a household if it is the man that is saved, and the women is thought by example from her youth that he (the husband) is the head of the woman.

Sadly, this is becoming a very rare circumstance.

[George]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

"I must interject a comment here:

Anecdotal illustrations are always dangerous to establish facts. There are likely as many and possibly many more stories of Christians who became mates of unsaved persons, who later greatly regretted that decision.

One of my sisters got married to an unsaved catholic who had pursued her for years. During that time, she had lost her fiance and his parents in a traffic accident while they were travelling to Florida for the wedding. After a period of time, she married the catholic. Much later (17+ years) after a rough marriage, she finally consented to a divorce. She later confided with my mother that she knew 3 weeks into the marriage that she had made a mistake.

I would tend to say that the story told above was a very minority exception to the rule.

While the "yoke" reference and argument are on target regarding marriage, the rest of the passage uses obvious disconnects as back-up evidences for the mandate: "what fellowship", "what communion", "what concord", "what part"... All of these are evidences that there will be discord in any type of relationship. There is also the admonition about walking together in agreement (Amos 3:3).

I could never counsel a believer to marry or even court a non-believer ."

Aloha brother Tim,

You said: "I could never counsel a believer to marry or even court a non-believer." To which all genuine Bible believers would agree. But WHY "must" you have to "interject a comment here"? WHY would you post a Post that only encourages the naysayers and gnat strainers (see Pam's Post following yours)? WHAT "Profit" was there in your Post? Has either my wife, Renee, or myself EVER "encouraged" a saved person to marry a lost person?

By the Posts that I have made here and on the Thread "Love and Race", haven't I made it perfectly "clear" that I am in complete agreement with you when it comes to: "I could never counsel a believer to marry or even court a non-believer".? BUT what happens WHEN a believer DOES MARRY a non-believer? Hmmm? (It happens you know) Do we SHUN that believer? Do we SEPARATE ourselves from that believer? Do we treat this couple (that are "married") any DIFFERENTLY than a saved couple that are married? Hmmm?

Your Post is disconcerting because it took away from my wife's "testimony" and then ENCOURAGED Pam to throw her two cents in (once again).

Where is the "EDIFICATION"? WHERE is the "PROFIT"? WHY "must" you "interject a comment here"? NO ONE was encouraging ANYONE to marry a lost person! You took away from a "personal testimony" (that blessed some of the brethren), and substituted an "anecdotal" story that PROVED NOTHING!

If the DIVORCE RATE for "Christians" is only 5% less than the DIVORCE RATE for the lost, could we not substitute literally thousands of "anecdotal stories" of two "Christians" that got married and later on got divorced? Would that PROVE that two "Christians" SHOULDN'T MARRY? Hmmm?

I am trying to figure out WHY you just had to comment??? WHAT were you trying to accomplish? I don't pretend to know your motive, but what I do know is that you diminished my wife's "personal testimony" and "ENCOURAGED" a naysayer!

I have tried to be fair with you - when at times you have "joked" or "made light" of a serious issue that I have presented in the past, but this tops it!

The following are some of my quotes from the Thread "Love and Race":

"Let's be absolutely clear - I have never recommended (on the AV1611 Bible Forums) that a saved person marry a lost person. I do not recommend it; but IF a saved person IS MARRIED to a lost person I DO NOT CONDEMN them or their "Marriage", and neither does God - and neither should you!"

"I am going to say this for the last time: "I always recommend that a Christian marry "in the Lord". And "I DO NOT RECOMMEND marrying a lost person". Did you get that? Is that CLEAR NOW?"

Could I be more clear? Your dismissal of my wife's "personal testimony" (as just an anecdotal story) is a personal affront to her and uncalled for. You offended my wife, and personally I do not appreciate it one little bit!

[custer]

George,
Why must you be so contentious? The exchange between you and Tim is none of my business, but I AM involved because Tim brought up the Amos 3:3 thing again...

Why do you only go on ranting about supposed "naysayers" instead of discussing that (and other) clear scripture?

Tim did NOT say or imply that you actually counsel saved people to marry lost people...

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com

[greenbear]

I believe that regardless of any possible wrong motives or missteps on the part of anyone involved in this thread, God has been glorified because the truth of the matter is this:

Renee

Like the divorce issue; because of the hardness of our heart, God provided a way of not condemning interfaith marriages. It is not His will or His way, but His permissive will. He knows the deceitful heart of men and made a way by which the unsaved is sanctified. The saved cannot become unclean so God sanctifies the unsaved because they are one.

Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Jennifer

[Renee]

Greenbear,

I look forward to meeting you in Glory. Your heart is tender toward the truth, and has not been hardened. Sometimes we christians have a very hard heart and a stiff neck.

May God continue to give you understanding of His word, wisdom and faith to accept it and strength to follow it.

In Christ Love,
Renee

[greenbear]

Renee,

Thank you for your kindness. Yes, won't it be wonderful to meet in person in our glorified bodies? Perhaps we'll even recognize each other on the way up!

Jennifer

[Brother Tim]

George and Renee,
I sincerely apologize if what I said offended you. It was not in any way intended to diminish anyone's personal testimony. The fact is that I as a pastor have experienced far more troubled marriages than secure marriages both for saved/unsaved couples and second marriages (either or both partners). I was concerned that my general sense of this thread was that the Bible did not discourage mixed marriages. I disagree with that.

I have the sad reality that within my own family, a brother has been through multiple marriages, a sister has divorced (not due to immorality), and a son has married a divorced woman with preteen children. I have had to speak to each of these regarding their particular situations. I have struggled with presenting the truth with pure love and no hint of condemnation. It is not something I wish on anyone else.

George, I am sorry that previous posts where I attempted to add a little humor was offensive to you. If you will direct me to those posts, I can be more specific with my apology, but at this point, I am not aware of any, that is, the Holy Spirit has not reprimanded me. It appears that I have gotten on your short list, and that saddens me, for it was in no way intentional.

I was very puzzled about why you, George, would get so upset about my referring to Renee's story as "anecdotal". I just now went back and re-read that post. She started the story:

I’ve seen a marriage where the guy was saved and married an unsaved idol worshiper steeped in Catholicism and they are still married today after many, many years...

The story continues on to speak in the third person, as if this was someone that Renee knew. I had no idea that she was speaking of your own marriage. I can see why you were upset, but I think the anger was not justified. How could I have known?

God has shown great grace with your marriage. You must know that it is a fairly rare exception. Thank God for His mercy.

[Brother Tim]

In the "Love/Race" thread that morphed into "saved/unsaved" discussion, several who often pointed out that there is no Scripture forbidding marriage between a Christian and non-Christian also without exception (that I can find) strongly explained that none would recommend or encourage such a marriage. My question is "Why?"

I stated that I could not counsel a believer to marry a non-believer. I would do all that I could to discourage such. Why? Because I believe that the Scriptures taken as a whole do not allow for such a choice, just as marrying a divorced person is not allowed.

George, Renee, Jennifer, and others:
What would you say to a person who came to you with this question. "I am in love with a person who does not believe in the Bible as the Word of God. We are compatible in many other areas and I have known this person for much of my life. We fit each other very well. Could you show me in Scripture where I am wrong to get married?"

Now this in no way gives me permission to reject those who have so married. Mercy and grace still overrule law. When my son announced that he was in love with a divorced woman, my wife and I did all we could to discourage the relationship. Despite our best efforts, it estranged our son from us and built a thick wall between us and his girlfriend. This went on for almost five years. As their relationship went all over the place, we tried to show as much compassion as humanly possible. As time went on, it appeared that they were moving apart. Then he went to Basic training. The distance created a bond. When he returned and it was evident that things were stronger than ever, I sat down with them and in essence split myself into two separate persons, parent and pastor. As a father, I was going to accept whatever decision that was made and love them both as only a father can. As a pastor, I warned them that their choice to get married would open the door for God's judgment as He chose. In either case, I would help however I could.
They married three days before he left for Iraq. We are working very hard to show my new daughter-in-law and our two new grandchildren that there is no condemnation with us. And yet, I know that there are dark times ahead.

[greenbear]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

In the "Love/Race" thread that morphed into "saved/unsaved" discussion, several who often pointed out that there is no Scripture forbidding marriage between a Christian and non-Christian also without exception (that I can find) strongly explained that none would recommend or encourage such a marriage. My question is "Why?"

I stated that I could not counsel a believer to marry a non-believer. I would do all that I could to discourage such. Why? Because I believe that the Scriptures taken as a whole do not allow for such a choice, just as marrying a divorced person is not allowed.

George, Renee, Jennifer, and others:
What would you say to a person who came to you with this question. "I am in love with a person who does not believe in the Bible as the Word of God. We are compatible in many other areas and I have known this person for much of my life. We fit each other very well. Could you show me in Scripture where I am wrong to get married?"

Now this in no way gives me permission to reject those who have so married. Mercy and grace still overrule law. When my son announced that he was in love with a divorced woman, my wife and I did all we could to discourage the relationship. Despite our best efforts, it estranged our son from us and built a thick wall between us and his girlfriend. This went on for almost five years. As their relationship went all over the place, we tried to show as much compassion as humanly possible. As time went on, it appeared that they were moving apart. Then he went to Basic training. The distance created a bond. When he returned and it was evident that things were stronger than ever, I sat down with them and in essence split myself into two separate persons, parent and pastor. As a father, I was going to accept whatever decision that was made and love them both as only a father can. As a pastor, I warned them that their choice to get married would open the door for God's judgment as He chose. In either case, I would help however I could.
They married three days before he left for Iraq. We are working very hard to show my new daughter-in-law and our two new grandchildren that there is no condemnation with us. And yet, I know that there are dark times ahead.

.................................................. .................................................. .......................................
Tim,

I am sorry that you have had to deal with the heartbreak of having your son marry a divorced woman. I know that is not what a father hopes for his child. This issue is very troubling and hard to come to grips with.

I stated that I could not counsel a believer to marry a non-believer. I would do all that I could to discourage such. Why?
Because I believe that the Scriptures taken as a whole do not allow for such a choice, just as marrying a divorced person is not allowed.

My answer to the question "Why?" would be simply because they will have trouble in the flesh. Unless the unsaved spouse becomes a believer the saved spouse will never know the full joys of a christian marriage. The children have a split and confused example and world view from their parents. There are so many reasons you could probably fill a library of books with them.

Why do you believe that the scriptures taken as a whole do not allow for such a choice? You are saying that you agree with Pam's position? What scriptures can you bring to the table to show that it is not allowed in the same way that marrying a divorced person is not allowed? There are verses that deal specifically with marrying divorced people. There are a couple of exceptions to that rule like if the divorcee is a believer married to an unbeliever who left him/her then they are free to remarry.

George, Renee, Jennifer, and others:
What would you say to a person who came to you with this question. "I am in love with a person who does not believe in the Bible as the Word of God. We are compatible in many other areas and I have known this person for much of my life. We fit each other very well. Could you show me in Scripture where I am wrong to get married?"

I would probably refer the couple to Paul's instructions to husbands and wives. Perhaps scriptures on raising godly children. I would describe in vivid detail the problems they will encounter. What I would not do is to refer to various scriptures that have no direct bearing on the issue and /or take them out of their context and apply them in a way they weren't intended to be applied.

My overriding concern in the Love and Race thread has been the misapplication of scriptures by certain individuals in an attempt to try to back up their personal opinions with the Bible, whether it be inter-racial marriage or marriage between believers and unbelievers.

The dispensation of grace as I understand it has few commandments. There is the exhortation for wives to submit to their husbands as to the Lord, husbands to love their wives like Christ loves the church, women not to teach men and to be quiet in public assembly, not to divorce, not to marry a divorced person, no fornication, no adultery, if there are more I can't think of them right now. All of these things can be clearly and in more than one place shown to be taught.

The Bible is perfect and infinite. If man would take one word away from it or add one word to it the infinite perfection suffers. The Bible is a system that's completely integrated within itself. I'm sure Will Kinney or bibleprotector could explain what I'm trying to say much better than I am. I think there are unseen, unintended consequences to building any kind of teaching on verses that only seem to apply in some general way, or verses that when examined, don't apply at all. I don't think we should lean to our own understanding when interpreting the scriptures. We shouldn't make them mean something they don't because we think it would help us to do a good thing or accomplish a worthy purpose.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

1 Corinthians 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

George and Renee have obviously lived their lives closely connected to this issue. Renee seems to me to have expressed the deepest insight into God's purpose and provision for sinful man in this matter:

Like the divorce issue; because of the hardness of our heart, God provided a way of not condemning interfaith marriages. It is not His will or His way, but His permissive will. He knows the deceitful heart of men and made a way by which the unsaved is sanctified. The saved cannot become unclean so God sanctifies the unsaved because they are one.

We must remember that God's purpose is to save whosoever will believe on His Son and His method is grace. His purpose is not to have us perfectly keep commandments and always make the right decisions. He knows that's not going to happen.

These questions can become so complex if you really think about them. For example, do two people become married in God's eyes when they sleep together? How many people are virgins when they marry, even within the church? Are they commiting adultery when they sleep with a second person? Are they commiting adultery when they finally marry? If you dig too deep you realize it becomes as much of a morass as the inter-racial marriage issue. That is, how to determine your exact mixture of different nationalities to find a suitable mate.

Jennifer