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#11
02-24-2009, 05:06 PM
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Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Quote:
1 Corinthians 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Quote:
Psalms 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away. |
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#12
02-24-2009, 06:13 PM
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Ahh yes, 1 Corinthians 2:10, that is a very good passage brother Kiwi...
I'm not sure that I completely understand it, but I like it... 
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#13
02-24-2009, 06:15 PM
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Aloha brother Parish,
Before I did my study on the heart of man, I accepted the teaching that all men are born with a "dead" spirit, I no longer believe that is true. I do not believe that the spirit in man can die, because it emanates from God (the source of ALL life), and it returns to God when the body dies. So then, I believe that the teaching that when Adam sinned that his spirit "died" must be in error. Adam died "spiritually" in the day that he sinned, but his spirit (that emanated from God) did not. That is, the very second Adam sinned his "connection"; "link"; or (more properly) "union" with God was BROKEN and he died "spiritually", but his spirit (not the Holy Spirit) did not die, because this was the "life force" within him that gave him life. The following is a portion from my study - "The Heart of the Matter". Please read the verses carefully and see what you think. I can tell you this though, nowhere's in the Holy Bible can I find where the spirit in man can die - perhaps you can. THE SPIRIT {Our "Life"} Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding. The Bible clearly testifies to the existence of spirits and distinguishes between God’s Holy Spirit and evil spirits. The Scriptures also demonstrate a distinct difference between the spirit within man and an animal’s spirit. (Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?) The word “spirit” (pertaining only to mankind – and excluding God’s Spirit or evil spirits, etc.) is mentioned approximately 144 times in 134 Verses in the Holy Bible. To accurately describe something that we cannot see, but accept by faith in the Scriptures, is extremely difficult. Webster’s Dictionary of 1828 is not that much help here either, because of the difficulty distinguishing between the soul and spirit. THE BIBLE DEFINITION OF MAN'S SPIRIT Quote:
It is quite clear from the testimony of Scripture that our spirit [“life”] emanates from the Lord God of the Bible. (Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.) I believe that man’s spirit is given [by God] to men and women at the moment of birth and at the moment of death that spirit returns unto God [who gave it]. God gave us our “life”, He has every right to take it back whenever it pleases Him Job 1:21. (Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.) There is a clear connection between the breath that is in man and his spirit. Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust (body) of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (spirit) of life; and man became a living soul. Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils; Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: and his From the moment of birth until death our life is in his hands. We have no power either to retain that life or to prevent our death. (Ecclesiastes 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it) While the Scriptures clearly demonstrate a distinct difference between the heart [a faculty] and the spirit [a substance] in purpose, a comparison between the heart and the spirit reveals that they both have many of the same characteristics. The following verses contain both the words heart and spirit together. Exodus 28:3 And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office. Exodus 35:21 And they came, every one whose heart stirred him up, and every one whom his spirit made willing, and they brought the LORD'S offering to the work of the tabernacle of the congregation, and for all his service, and for the holy garments. Deuteronomy 2:30 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day. Joshua 5:1 And it came to pass, when all the kings of the Amorites, which were on the side of Jordan westward, and all the kings of the Canaanites, which were by the sea, heard that the LORD had dried up the waters of Jordan from before the children of Israel, until we were passed over, that their heart melted, neither was there spirit in them any more, because of the children of Israel. Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; Psalms 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. Psalms 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit Psalms 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Psalms 77:6 I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and my spirit made diligent search. Psalms 78:8 And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation that set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with God. within me. was Psalms 143:4 Therefore is my spirit overwhelmed within me; my heart Proverbs 15:13 A merry heart maketh a cheerful countenance: but by sorrow of the heart the spirit is broken. Proverbs 17:22 A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones. Ecclesiastes 1:17 And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. within me is desolate. Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. Isaiah 65:14 Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit. Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: Ezekiel18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? Ezekiel 21:7 And it shall be, when they say unto thee, Wherefore sighest thou? that thou shalt answer, For the tidings; because it cometh: and every heart shall melt, and all hands shall be feeble, and every spirit shall faint, and all knees shall be weak as water: behold, it cometh, and shall be brought to pass, saith the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. Mark 2:8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 1Peter 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. Additional verses on man’s spirit: OLD TESTAMENT Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils; {I do not believe that Job is referring to the Holy Spirit here - I believe he is speaking about his own "spirit".} Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding. Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; Psalms 31:5 Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth. and his Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it. Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: Daniel 7:15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. NEW TESTAMENT Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. Mark 15:37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. Luke 8:55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat. Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. Acts 5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. Acts 5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. Acts 12:23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost. Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 1Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 2Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 1Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. James2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. {NOTE: The words spirit and ghost are used interchangeably in the King James Bible.} The above study is an example of how I study the Bible. I want to know everything Almighty God has to say about an issue or a doctrine, that is why for the last 20 years I no longer inquire from men as to what they might think about a Scriptural matter. My studies are from the Holy word of God, and wherever God's words differ with men, I throw out whatever men may say or teach, and cling to the precious words that God has preserved for all of us in the King James Bible. Yea, as the Scriptures say: Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. |
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#14
02-24-2009, 06:33 PM
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#15
02-24-2009, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by George
Quote:
I think you have made some good points which I shall consider. The only part I have a problem with is the part above about the moment of birth. Those are fighting words for pro-lifers my brother. I think the unborn are fully alive in the womb (same as you and me, not partially alive or sort of alive, etc.), the only reason Adam wasn't is because he was not BORN from a womb. He had no umbilical and no life, he was a "special case." Sorry brother, I think Ruckman and you are both wrong are that one. (Luke 1:15, Isaiah 49:1, Judges 13:7, Jeremiah 20:17). And you guys know how I love Bro. Ruckman. Plenty of locked threads about that whole issue. But, that's what makes Bible study interesting, and I salute you for the rest of the information. I'm not sure I have a hard opinion on the dead vs. live spirit issue, I was always under the impression that Ephesians 2:1 indicated our spirits were dead, but I guess that is debatable. Either way, thanks again for your thoughts my brothers, I appreciate both of you very much. Last edited by Bro. Parrish; 02-24-2009 at 07:18 PM. |
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#16
02-24-2009, 07:57 PM
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I always thought that dead means separated from God.
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. Gen 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. So, to be dead means to be separted from God. But also the Bible speaks of two different types of bodies. 1 Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. I could be wrong on this, but I believe the unsaved will be raised in a corruptable body as we have now. They will be subject to pain and even disease. Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. I think worm here could mean bacteria and disease. Not only will a person be tormented in fire, but I believe a person's body will continue to deteriorate as it does as we age. The body will corrupt more and more, yet not die. |
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#17
02-24-2009, 08:24 PM
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If death means separation here, then why didn't God say to Adam "in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely be separated/cut off/disconnected", but He said "surely die". If nothing in Adam literally died, as in his spirit, then it becomes figurative, right? |
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#18
02-24-2009, 09:10 PM
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Kiwi Christian
OK, first of all, I am no Bible scholar like many here. I am just a simple fellow who reads God's Word and asks God to help me understand it. Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. 18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. Couple of things here. First, notice God only gave Adam this command, Eve was not around yet. So I believe Eve learned this command from Adam. Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. Notice that God mentioned nothing about touching the fruit to Adam. But Eve believed you could not touch it. But we know that Adam and Eve did not die (physical death) the very day they ate the fruit. Adam lived 930 years. Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died. But something significant did happen to both Adam and Eve when they ate the forbidden fruit. Before they ate they were naked and not ashamed. Gen 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. Now notice, that not only did they realize they were naked, suddenly they became fearful of God. They hid and were separated from God. Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. 8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. So, you see here they were separated from God. And God had to make coats from skins to re-establish the relationship. So an innocent animal (most likely a lamb) had to die and shed it's blood to cover their sins, which is a picture of Christ. Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. |
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#19
02-24-2009, 09:19 PM
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Re: "A Question Concerning Hell --"
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I have been so busy the last few months that I haven't been able to research this whole issue. I've got a lot on my plate - so to speak! However, you will notice that Ephesians 2 doesn't say that our "spirit" was DEAD - BEFORE we were QUICKENED (when we got saved), it says: Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; The question is: Which "attribute" of man Is "dead"? Or How many "attributes" could be "dead"? And does the word "dead" in this context mean dead as in a "dead" (lifeless) body? If we examine the following verses it becomes obvious that our definition or concept of the word "dead", may not always line up with the way God expresses it in His Holy word. Romans 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: {Was Abraham "DEAD"? Not in the sense that we understand "dead"!} Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? {This is DEEP STUFF! How are we "dead" to sin? My body is still alive; my soul is alive; my spirit is alive - HOW am I "dead" to sin? What attribute of mine is "dead" to sin?} Romans 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: {Again - What "attribute" of man is considered "dead" with Christ?} Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. {Notice the words "newness" of spirit? I don't believe our spirit was "dead" - but it has been made "NEW". We don't only have the Holy Spirit living in us, we have a "NEW" spirit (a "spirit that has been "CHANGED"?)} Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Colossians 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 1 Timothy 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth. Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Hebrews 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. I believe that Adam died "spiritually" the moment he ate of the fruit. However, there are far too many verses in the Bible that clearly state that the "life" that we have is derived from the "spirit" that is within in us (which emanates from God, WHO IS LIFE). Does God put a dead "spirit" within a person? I believe that a person can be "spiritually dead" without necessarily having a "dead" spirit. I don't profess to understand all that is involved in this issue, but I repeat: Is there a verse (or verses) in the Bible where it clearly says that the "spirit" that is in man dies, or is dead? I haven't been able to find one - perhaps someone out there can.  Last edited by George; 02-24-2009 at 09:40 PM. |
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#20
02-24-2009, 09:38 PM
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Re: "A Question Concerning Hell --"
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I have stated my beliefs on the issue, but I could be wrong (it wouldn't be the first time)  , and so other than continuing to hold to my convictions, unless I can be proven wrong from the Scriptures, I try not to make it an issue with the brethren; although some of the brethren strongly disagree with me.I am pleased that you are willing to re-examine the Scriptures on the issue of the "spirit" that is within man. This is one of those issues that will probably never be settled amongst the brethren, until we meet Him "face to face" - and then we shall know, even as we are known. There are some Bible issues that are worth "fighting" over and there are those that are so DEEP that we may as well admit that we just don't know everything.
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