Originally Posted by Connie

So I guess that means that I'm not a dispensationalist!

Do you offer animal sacrifices today and observe the clean and unclean laws? No? Then you are a dispensationalist in some sense (not necessarily following some school of dispensationalism though). Dispensation literally means "house rules/laws." God has different rules for each dispensation for His children to follow. We are not forbidden to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, nor are we building an ark today - those were rules for people or individuals in another time period (ie. dispensation).

No, I am not advocating some school of dispensationalism, but every true believer who studies their Bible will be a dispensationalist to some extent - unless they believe that literally EVERYTHING in the Bible directly applies to them today. Wonder how they offer their sacrifices in the temple?...

Yes, I'm a dispensationalist in that sense.

[Brother Tim]

Are there not many principles taught and doctrines established in to OT "dispensation" that still apply today? There is certainly a dividing line where specific actions ended which in their doing foretold of later-revealed truths (such as animal sacrifices), but I think that too much parsing takes place.

Jerry, your example of the ark doesn't fit. God's instruction to an individual should qualify as a dispensation. Incidentally, how many dispensations were in the OT era? How were they defined? Based on the definition given, there must have been many.

You are right about Noah and the ark - that is not the same thing. I meant to take that out of there. A dispensation contains instructions for that time period for everyone (or specifically for God's people) in that time period. Example, we are no longer under the Law (ie. bound to keep all of it as a unit). There are various aspects of it that are fulfilled and done away with. Though there are certainly principles and parts of it that still apply - and that overlap the church age, which is the dispensation we are currently in. There are things that God is doing now, and ways He expects His people to live now, that were not so in prior dispensations.

[scott]

I would like to see some more discussion on the original question posed concerning the "rapture" of the Church; there is no doubt that there will be a gathering back to Christ, the question is when. Most people use 1 Thessalonians 4 as their basis for the rapture theory; as I recall, none of the "early Church fathers" or commentators ever mentioned a rapture [any moment, any time] doctrine, but rather see these verses as comforting those who mourn the loss of a loved one; however, if we do want to use these verses, how does 2 Thess 2 fit in?

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

These verses seem to indicate that we will be here at least for a part of the tribulation or am I missing something?? I'd love to read some discussion....God bless

[Biblestudent]

What does "rapture" mean? Was the word "rapture" taken from or used to describe the phrase "caught up"?

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Does the expression "caught up" imply a quick event or a delayed process?

[chette777]

If I am right when they translated scripture into Latin they substituted the word in Greek for caught away with the Latin word Raptura or the english transliteration Rapture.

Most translation don't use the word rapture in Thesselonians. but the teaching comes from long ago and the word rapture was used and it was past down and is still used today to discribe the catching away of the believers to Jesus in the clouds.

[Biblestudent]

It is clear in Scirpture that in the Second Coming, "all eye shall see him". How about the Rapture of the Church? Is it "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye", or can we be seen ascending up to heaven, too?
I believe that the words "caught up" indicates a quick event that will happen in the "twinkling of an eye". Are there other opinions?

[chette777]

I agree it will be fast no one will see it. However they will know it.

[Brother Tim]

There is always a danger in creating a false teaching when the Scriptures are not seen in their broadest context. In specific, one must look before and after a statement to see the immediate context. In the case of the "twinkling of an eye", the timing is not descriptive of the the catching up, but of the change which takes place at that event. Read the following carefully. I have underlined portions for emphasis.

I Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

It can be clearly seen that the topic is the changing from mortal to immortal. Therefore the phrase "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" tells us how fast the change takes place. The phrase "at the last trump" tells us the point in time for the event, and the phrase "the dead shall be raised incorruptible" tells us who is involved.