Originally Posted by Steve Schwenke

Not exactly how I have seen the term used before. I meant dry-cleaners in the sense that they don't administer the NT ordinance of baptism AT ALL. Baptism is an ORDINANCE not a sacrament. It is something we do out of obedience to the scripture for no other reason than to obey the Scripture. It has nothing to do with salvation.
But if you know your church history, you know that the Baptists were persecuted heavily by the protestants for insisting on baptism AFTER salvation, and not in connection with salvation. Our position implicated their doctrine as false, since by default, baby-sprinklers are forced to admit that baptism is connected to salvation, and that it is not necessary after salvation. WE have lost our sense of history because of our political freedoms.

Excellent post brother Schwenke.

[chette777]

We try and keep our doctrines in line with what Paul teaches. If Jesus, John the Baptist, James and Peter teaches something, doctrine, baptism. I Will find scriptures where Paul teaches the same thing, then I make it a doctrine for the church. If not then I might find it as an application but not a doctrines. Paul does not teach Baptism as an ordinance.

Roms 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Paul teaches Baptism is an act of Identification of the believer with Christ. Just as Christ was baptized in the identification of sinners. Who were taught by John the Baptist to repent and be baptized for the remissions of sins. Jesus Identified himself with sinners in Johns Baptism and Paul taught we are baptized in His likeness. the water baptism is just an outward show of identification.

Christ had no sins so why be baptized? Identification an outward show. it was all part of God the Father overall plan for him to be in the likeness of sinful man that he might fulfill the purpose of death for the forgiveness of sins for all men. John said to him it is you who should baptize me. and he is right the baptism for the remission of John;s sins. but Christ said to let it be

Matt 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Seeing Christ took time to show his identification with man through water baptism we should too. and we need no ordinance for that. it is something each man must be convinced by the Holy Ghost to do and not by rule or regulation of ordinances to enforce this. for Baptism today is not an act of obedience unless you place them under a Kingdom Gospel instead of the Gospel of Grace.

Paul's teaching under the Gospel of grace has baptism as an identification not an ordinance to follow.

Chette, I agree in principle with your last post. I think the word we are having trouble with is "ordinance."
By ordinance, I simply mean that this is something that we observe out of obedience to Scripture. Websters 1828:

1. a rule established by authority; a permanent rule of action.
2. Observance commanded
3. Appointment
4. Established rite or ceremony

Thus Baptism is a permanent rule of action, in that the "rule" from Scripture is that believers WERE baptized after salvation. The examples are clear for us that we baptize believers. It is an established "rite"; it is a permanent rule of action. Maybe that clarifies things for you? Other than that, I am not sure what the disagreement is about, if there is any!

In Christ

[Jassy]

I believe from the Bible teachings BEFORE Paul, that water baptism was a ritual that started with John the Baptist. It was an outward showing of an inward conversion. And it was taught to be necessary. Indeed, even Jesus Christ was baptized (although He, of course, had no need of it!).

It was primarily the JEWS that were initially the early converts and they were baptized because Jesus and the original apostles were preaching primarily to these Jews. So baptism for the Jews was FOR the purpose of repentance and washing away of sins. It was actually symbolic of that and the death and resurrection of Christ.

In Paul's writings, he did not show water baptism to be vital or necessary for salvation. Sure, there is nothing wrong with baptism - it's perfectly fine if a believer wishes to be baptized. I see nothing wrong with that from the Bible. Yet Paul did not make baptism a requirement. Additionally, the Bible talks of the baptism of the Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost). This is what I believe happens to EVERY believer, at the moment they have faith an believe in Jesus Christ's death, burial, resurrection and ascension. When they truly believe that, then they are "baptized" by the Holy Spirit, into the Body of Christ.

I don't believe that anyone can point to any Scriptures after the NEW teachings of Paul (salvation by GRACE and not by LAW or WORKS), that make water baptism MANDATORY for any believer.

Again, I am not against baptism - I myself was baptized by immersion. I think that many church denominations today teach it as a required ritual. It's not.

Jassy

[chette777]

I didn't mean to hijack this post I was using baptism as an example about doctrines so that if the books being divided right would reveal what is in line with Paul's teachings

NO where in scripture does John the Baptist ever teach Baptism is an outward showing of an inward conversion. it does in fact being a step of obedience if they believed his words, repent and then be baptized FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS. no grace applied until the act of obedience is carried out by the believer in the Kingdom Gospel.

Paul teaches nothing on water baptism. Paul's only remarks are who he baptized. Are example is he baptized. Roms 6 is actually spiritual. But we use those words to show our Identification with Christ which is an outward show of what God has done in our hearts. Buried in his likeness of death, raised in his newness of life. Paul taught "Baptismal Identification in Christ" now there is a Biblical doctrine we can follow. no need for the word ordinance to connected to it when in fact the Bible does not use it in connection to Baptism.

ordinance should be discussed in the other thread "Ordinances". sorry for the hijack

[Luke]

I agree with Chette on this one. We do it, but it's not a "step of obedience" or "ordinance" and especially not a sacrament (but no one has said that). We don't see Paul commanding baptism by water immersion, even though he did baptize some of his converts, though only a few.

[pneuby]

I had a whole post ready to go, and the confounded board timed-out on me, or something!

Anyhow, I have NOT confused that site with your's, to be clear. My main concern is that they seem to assert that only the Pauline letters are FOR the Church today, in this dispensation of Grace. That anything from Hebrews, forward, is for Jews in the end times.

Clearly, however, the letters from Peter, James, John, and Jude are to, and FOR believers, yes?

[George]

Originally Posted by pneuby

I had a whole post ready to go, and the confounded board timed-out on me, or something!

Anyhow, I have NOT confused that site with your's, to be clear. My main concern is that they seem to assert that only the Pauline letters are FOR the Church today, in this dispensation of Grace. That anything from Hebrews, forward, is for Jews in the end times.

Clearly, however, the letters from Peter, James, John, and Jude are to, and FOR believers, yes?

Aloha brother,

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

{The Scriptures "were written for our learning".}

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

{"All Scripture is profitable."}

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

{We are told to rightly divide "the word of truth" - NOT rightly divide the Books of the Bible}

Read the "introduction" to the Book of James: [James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting."] Obviously James main address is TO "the twelve tribes (of Israel) scattered abroad". The Books of Hebrews, James, I & II Peter, I, II, & III John, Jude, and Revelation may be for the saints in the future (after the "translation" of the church), but any teaching within those Books that line up with Paul's teaching in his Epistles are for us, just as any teaching within the Old Testament or the Four Gospels that line up with Paul's teachings is also for us.

In other words - the entire Bible has been written FOR us (for our learning), but the entire Bible is NOT written TO us; and it is our job to rightly divide "the word of truth" to determine WHAT applies to the church (and the Christian); and what applies to Israel (Hebrews/Jews) in the time past and in the future.

1 Corinthians 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

[Jassy]

Originally Posted by chette777

I didn't mean to hijack this post I was using baptism as an example about doctrines so that if the books being divided right would reveal what is in line with Paul's teachings

NO where in scripture does John the Baptist ever teach Baptism is an outward showing of an inward conversion. it does in fact being a step of obedience if they believed his words, repent and then be baptized FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS. no grace applied until the act of obedience is carried out by the believer in the Kingdom Gospel.

Paul teaches nothing on water baptism. Paul's only remarks are who he baptized. Are example is he baptized. Roms 6 is actually spiritual. But we use those words to show our Identification with Christ which is an outward show of what God has done in our hearts. Buried in his likeness of death, raised in his newness of life. Paul taught "Baptismal Identification in Christ" now there is a Biblical doctrine we can follow. no need for the word ordinance to connected to it when in fact the Bible does not use it in connection to Baptism.

ordinance should be discussed in the other thread "Ordinances". sorry for the hijack

Brother Chette,

Thank you for the points that you made. You are correct and I appreciate the correction.

Jassy

[pneuby]

Originally Posted by George

{We are told to rightly divide "the word of truth" - NOT rightly divide the Books of the Bible}

Well, I agree with that. And giving them the benefit of the doubt, they seem to make that pretty simplistic point of cut-off. That is, Hebrews to Revelation is NOT for the 'church'.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. 2 My brethern

That term 'brethern' is used over an over in reference to BELIEVERS. In 2:1 "My brethern, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ...with respect of persons." Certainly unbelieving Jews did NOT have the faith of Jesus?

1 Peter 1) "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ , to the...2) ELECT according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit..." Certainly unbelieving Jews were not sanctified, that's addressed to believers.

2 Peter 1) "...To them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.". Sounds again like believers, to me.

1 John 2 24) " Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning, ..ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25) And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. " WHO alone receives eternal life after trusting upon Jesus?

Jude 1) ".. to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called. "

From what I've read in those letters, they are directed To, and FOR, believers, be they be formally Jews...still believers.

Am I missing something?

Obviously James main address is TO "the twelve tribes (of Israel) scattered abroad". The Books of Hebrews, [/COLOR]James, I & II Peter, I, II, & III John, Jude, and Revelation may be for the saints in the future (after the "translation" of the church),

In other words - the entire Bible has been written FOR us (for our learning), but the entire Bible is NOT written TO us; and it is our job to rightly divide "the word of truth" to determine WHAT applies to the church (and the Christian); and what applies to Israel (Hebrews/Jews) in the time past and in the future.

.