[chette777]

some of what Tandi Posted reminded me of this heretic out there at some site called bible truths.com but he is a heretic and a false teacher at best. Some of what she posted seemed like it was pasted directly from some of this mans website posts.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by chette777

some of what Tandi Posted reminded me of this heretic out there at some site called bible truths.com but he is a heretic and a false teacher at best. Some of what she posted seemed like it was pasted directly from some of this mans website posts.

Could be Chette. I don;t have any comments for this thread, I said what I was led to say to Tandi in other threads. She never read it, she was not grounded, and what was ground was seared conscience. Others with questions on Judaizing and placing people under the Law, maybe someone under a Law system themselves will read what she left and read the Scripture response to her, His words won't return to Him void. She was stubborn and stiffnecked, and prophets of God spoke to her anyway, and as in Ezekiel 2, now she has no excuse.

Grace and peace brother

Tony

[Luke]

It is as important to keep the Church and Israel separate, as much as it is to keep the First Adam and the Last Adam separate

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Luke

It is as important to keep the Church and Israel separate, as much as it is to keep the First Adam and the Last Adam separate

No where in the Bible is there one single prophecy foretelling the church brother. Israel's blessing regards a land grant and habitation and domination, our blessing and inheritance is in heavenly places.

Grace and peace

Tony

[Greektim]

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

No where in the Bible is there one single prophecy foretelling the church brother. Israel's blessing regards a land grant and habitation and domination, our blessing and inheritance is in heavenly places.

Grace and peace

Tony

How about Matt. 16:18 for a Church prophecy?

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Greektim

How about Matt. 16:18 for a Church prophecy?

Which church brother?

The first "church" was the nation of Israel, the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob unto which the promises by God were made:

Ac 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

The next church is the Messianic/Apostolic church under the 12 Apostles with Peter as the prime apostle to:

Matt. 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Ac 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

The church no man was told ofis the church you and I are in today. This church has as it's prime apostle Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, the co-equal Body made up for the first time in human history of Gentiles and Jews together equally, which was the Mystery not made known from eternity past until reveal to Paul and through Paul:

Eph. 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you–ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

This is Paul's church, the Body of Christ, and grafted into the Messianic/Apostolic Church under Peter in Acts 15 when Peter, James, and John surrendered the 5 Commissions given to them to Paul's Commission of Acts 9, as related in Galatians 2:

Ga 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

The church in the wilderness is the nation of Israel.

The Messianic/Apostolic church is the "kingdom of priests" (Ex. 19)that John the Baptist consecrated Christ as High Priest for(water baptismal washing of Lev. 8) and then He was sanctified by God the Father after this baptism(washing) by the pouring on Christ of the "oil"(the Holy Spirit, which is what the oil typified). After the resurrection Christ gave 5 commissions to the 12 to continue to build this "kingdom of priests" by their preaching of the gospel of the kingdom of Christ as their King and High Priests. This is the church that would have, and will in the future, go through the Tribulation, as Peter in Acts 2 preached Joel 2, the coming Great tribulation, the Wrath To Come. National Israel was set aside at the final rejection of Christ with the murder of Stephen in Acts 7.

Paul is called to preach Christ to Gentiles, kings, and Jews the gospel of the grace of God through Christ's sacrifice apart from the works of the Law. This church is a Body made of Gentiles and Jews now equal as the middle wall of partition, as with the wall separating the Court Of The Gentiles from the rest of the Temple, has been broken down and the two are now One In Christ. Paul's Commission to us is to bear Christ's Name, the Name above every name, to Gentiles, kings, and Jews as ambassadors for Christ and ministers of the reconciliation that God was in Christ, who died for the sins of the world and was buried and resurrected after three days, reconciling the world unto Himself through Christ and Paul's gospel of Grace.

At the "Rapture" this Body will be taken out of the world where the 7000 "who have not bowed the knee to Baal" will form the core of the 144,000 missionaries of Revelation. It is unto these that Hebrews-Revelation is committed to as doctrine for them, as is Genesis-Acts 28, this is the continuation of the Messianic-Apostolic church that will precede the return of Moses and Elijah as prophets and preachers in the Tribulation.

I believe this goes a ways in answering a question you posed to me in the Water Baptism thread about the different churches Tim. Feel free to inquire further.

Grace and peace brother

Tony

[Greektim]

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

Which church brother?

The first "church" was the nation of Israel, the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob unto which the promises by God were made:

Ac 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

The next church is the Messianic/Apostolic church under the 12 Apostles with Peter as the prime apostle to:

Matt. 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Ac 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

The church no man was told ofis the church you and I are in today. This church has as it's prime apostle Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, the co-equal Body made up for the first time in human history of Gentiles and Jews together equally, which was the Mystery not made known from eternity past until reveal to Paul and through Paul:

Eph. 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you–ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

This is Paul's church, the Body of Christ, and grafted into the Messianic/Apostolic Church under Peter in Acts 15 when Peter, James, and John surrendered the 5 Commissions given to them to Paul's Commission of Acts 9, as related in Galatians 2:

Ga 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

The church in the wilderness is the nation of Israel.

The Messianic/Apostolic church is the "kingdom of priests" (Ex. 19)that John the Baptist consecrated Christ as High Priest for(water baptismal washing of Lev. 8) and then He was sanctified by God the Father after this baptism(washing) by the pouring on Christ of the "oil"(the Holy Spirit, which is what the oil typified). After the resurrection Christ gave 5 commissions to the 12 to continue to build this "kingdom of priests" by their preaching of the gospel of the kingdom of Christ as their King and High Priests. This is the church that would have, and will in the future, go through the Tribulation, as Peter in Acts 2 preached Joel 2, the coming Great tribulation, the Wrath To Come. National Israel was set aside at the final rejection of Christ with the murder of Stephen in Acts 7.

Paul is called to preach Christ to Gentiles, kings, and Jews the gospel of the grace of God through Christ's sacrifice apart from the works of the Law. This church is a Body made of Gentiles and Jews now equal as the middle wall of partition, as with the wall separating the Court Of The Gentiles from the rest of the Temple, has been broken down and the two are now One In Christ. Paul's Commission to us is to bear Christ's Name, the Name above every name, to Gentiles, kings, and Jews as ambassadors for Christ and ministers of the reconciliation that God was in Christ, who died for the sins of the world and was buried and resurrected after three days, reconciling the world unto Himself through Christ and Paul's gospel of Grace.

At the "Rapture" this Body will be taken out of the world where the 7000 "who have not bowed the knee to Baal" will form the core of the 144,000 missionaries of Revelation. It is unto these that Hebrews-Revelation is committed to as doctrine for them, as is Genesis-Acts 28, this is the continuation of the Messianic-Apostolic church that will precede the return of Moses and Elijah as prophets and preachers in the Tribulation.

I believe this goes a ways in answering a question you posed to me in the Water Baptism thread about the different churches Tim. Feel free to inquire further.

Grace and peace brother

Tony

Ok...let me back up...and don't forget I am a Dispensationalist (normative/classical/traditional; I call myself a strict/refined Dispensationalist b/c of my views of the Kingdom of God, the New Covenant, & Spirit indwelling which are a bit different than the Ryrie, Walvoord, Pentecost Dispensationalism. But that is for another time...):

You see 2 churches, or possibly 3 (OT Israe? & a Messianic Petrine or are they the same???). No doubt the KJV speaks of a "church" in the OT from Acts 7. I only see 1 Church beginning at Pentecost. I see an ekklesia (congregation or assembly) in Acts 7 just as you see ekklesia (assembly) in Acts 19. But...potato potahtoe...

My first question is, would you say that the Church (Pauline in your case) is a mystery (mystery being that which was not revealed in the past, etc...)? If yes, could you provide the Scripture that directly says the church is a mystery? If not, well then you get the idea...

Last thing, Jesus uses a future tense in Matt. 16:18 "I will build My Church." Does that not affect the way you interpret it? Are we not part of Jesus' Church? How can you tell which ekklesia He is referring to?

I know I was accused of asking to many questions, but I hope that doesn't bother you Tony. I want to get a feel for things before I go right off and stick my foot in my mouth. I have big feet so that would not be a good thing.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Greektim

Ok...let me back up...and don't forget I am a Dispensationalist (normative/classical/traditional; I call myself a strict/refined Dispensationalist b/c of my views of the Kingdom of God, the New Covenant, & Spirit indwelling which are a bit different than the Ryrie, Walvoord, Pentecost Dispensationalism. But that is for another time...):

You see 2 churches, or possibly 3 (OT Israe? & a Messianic Petrine or are they the same???). No doubt the KJV speaks of a "church" in the OT from Acts 7. I only see 1 Church beginning at Pentecost. I see an ekklesia (congregation or assembly) in Acts 7 just as you see ekklesia (assembly) in Acts 19. But...potato potahtoe...

My first question is, would you say that the Church (Pauline in your case) is a mystery (mystery being that which was not revealed in the past, etc...)? If yes, could you provide the Scripture that directly says the church is a mystery? If not, well then you get the idea...

Last thing, Jesus uses a future tense in Matt. 16:18 "I will build My Church." Does that not affect the way you interpret it? Are we not part of Jesus' Church? How can you tell which ekklesia He is referring to?

I know I was accused of asking to many questions, but I hope that doesn't bother you Tony. I want to get a feel for things before I go right off and stick my foot in my mouth. I have big feet so that would not be a good thing.

You don't ask too many questions, as far as I am concerned Tim. I enjoy talking with you, so no problem. I don't see any guile in you, you have differing opinions maybe with many on this forum, I'm sure you and I differ. No problem. See brother, I was once an Inquisitioner. I expected every Christian to have the belief I did because I thought my way was encoded in all Christian's DNA. It was when I became involved in the street ministry I relearned an old lesson: I was once Church Of Christ, as hell-damning a heresy as any cult you want to name. My lesson was, don't beat the Pentecostal for being Pentecostal, I was wrong once too. I'm not saying you are wrong on anything, I'm saying I am personally a little more long-suffering than I once was and can can see another's perspective. Sometimes we can't when the heresy is blatant, as with Tandi, and sometimes you just get people with an Inquisitioner's attitude, as with this Oneway person. Also, I owe you a response on the discussion in another thread on the NKJV. I throw things into bold type, italics, and underline for emphasis and that makes me appear cut, dried, and pedantic. It's hard to convey emotions through computer text. Lastly, the last ten years have been to me like Job's Time on the ground. I could have packed and left my mother to fend for herself, I chose to care for her, at the end she and I both lost everything we owned. That time of financial exile is coming to an end and I have a "tour" planned to meet friends I have met on the 'net, I'll be over your way and we'll meet face to face someday soon.

Brother, the Scripture you ask for regarding this church today being unprophesied and a "mystery" was quoted in my message: Ephesians 3. If you notice from his writings, Paul leaves no mystery undefined. He says, okay folks, here is a mystery, and then he says what it is.

The church in the wilderness, the first ecclesia mentioned by Stephen, is the nation of Israel. this nation apostatized as the OT shows, and it was prophesied that God would have to call a New Israel from the Old. It was stated the Levites, along with the other people of the nation, also went into idolatry with them. This is why the Levitical washing was called a baptism(washing) of "repentance". The priesthood needed cleansing just as much as the rest of the nation. To those who responded to John the Baptist and to those who refused, John stated, I come baptizing with water and all his listeners knew just what he meant: Exodus 29, 40, Lev 8 washings as consecration. He stated then to the belivers, He who comes after me will baptize you in the Holy Ghost,(the sanctification of the "oil") and with fire(those who rejected the gospel of the kingdom of heaven, thrown into hell).

I agree with you on Matt. 16: Christ prophesied the Messianic church, it was fulfilled in Acts 2, and in Acts 2:47 the Scriptures state God added to the "church" as many as accepted the message and obeyed the ordinance of Levitical washing and then they received the sanctification of the gift of the Holy Ghost. You have a term you call "progressive dispensationalism", I am teaching here progressive revelation. Paul gives the number of believers in this Messianic church in 1 Cor. 15 as being over 511 on the day of Pentecost, this church eventually grew and was numbered at the time of the surrender of the 5 "great commissions" given to the 12 by the risen Christ to Paul and Barnabas at being 7000. I believe this because I believe the Scriptures are precise down to the last atom.

1Ki 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

Ro 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

The Messianic church in Paul's time was the "little flock", the "remnant". When national Israel fell(Rom. 11) Paul was called and was given the revelation that the third church that you and I are in came to be by Israel's fall rather than exaltation. At no time in history were Jews and Gentiles together in one Body. Until Paul receives the revelation from Christ. Paul says we are "graffed" into something. National Israel that fell?

No, we are grafted into the Messianic church to maintain the One-Body relationship to Christ. The church you and I are in was grafted into this Believing Remnant of Peter, James, and John at Acts 15, as Paul describes, the very instant we are grafted is when they gave Paul and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship.

The question you may have at this time is why then did not the Messianic church then follow Paul?

Ro 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man‘s foundation:

Ac 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,

I "rightly divide Paul": Pre-Acts 15, But Now, today, and his work laying the foundation, with the 12, for the Tribulation church, which is nothing more than the Messianic church. The program was interrupted by the mystery Body of Eph. 3, we are a parenthetical addition not mentioned in any prophecy.

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in [U]all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.[/U]

Peter did not say he didn't understand Paul's letters or commission otherwise he would not have given him the right hand of fellowship: He said there were things the unlearned and unstable would wrest, as the Church Of Christ, the Catholics, and other do.

3 in particular I can name for you wrest Paul to put us back under the Law: Tandi, Herbert Armstrong's followers, and Ellen White of the SDAs.

Larkin and Scofield divided the word into 7 dispensations: Paul divides it into 3 in Eph. 2:

Time Past- Genesis-Acts 28: The fathers, nation of Israel, Messiah and Messianic Church(water baptism and the signs of the apostles cease at Acts 28. Bullinger taught the Biody began at Acts 28, the sign gifts ran out at Acts 28).
But Now- The mystery Body of Jew and Gentiles. For simplicity's sake I call this administration(dispensation) ACTS CHAPTER 29 that you and I are in. Romans-Philemon.
Ages To Come- Hebrews-Revelation. The Messianic-Apostolic-Tribulation church. The time covered is Tribulation, Millennium, Eternity.

To understand Pauline Dispensationalism you need to know the difference between:

Law and Grace
Peter and Paul
Israel(the Bride) and the Church of today under Paul(the Body of The Groom)
Kings and Priests
Moses and Jesus Christ

All Scripture is profitable for doctrine, not all that doctrine is applicable to you and me. Paul's Scriptures can be and are rightly divided into:

Doctrine- Romans
Reproof- I & II Corinthians
Correction- Galatians-Colossians
Instruction In Righteousness- I Thess.-Philemon

Tim, if you can digest all this, this above is why I do not practice or teach OT ordinances given to national Israel and the Messianic/Apostolic Israel of:

Water baptism
Tongues, signs, wonders, healings, resurrections of the dead
Tithing
The Lord's Supper

I do not practice the 5 commissions given to the 12, but the one commission given to Paul: I am an ambassador for Christ and minister of the reconciliation. My gospel is salvation by grace through faith apart from the works of the Law in Christ crucified for the sins of the whole world. Any other gospel preached than this one is accursed along with the people preaching it.

Tim, this is what I have taught in the forum, I taught it to Tandi, I have given parts of it in other threads. I'm not "pushing" anything as brother George mentioned in the water baptism thread, I am merely being consistent, do not change, and have not nor ever will deviate from it. I am not double minded as many cultists are, I do not change my position to suit whoever I am speaking to at the moment. I have never quoted Stam, Bullinger, Darby, Baker, or any of the Plymouth Brethren but given my position from the Scriptures. This is why Pauline Grace Dispensationalists are called heretics, false teachers, "Bullingerites" and divisive church splitters. It's my position in the water baptism thread and I'm still waiting for someone to refute it. If churches won;t allow me fellowship with them, if it gets me thrown out of internet forums as it has several, then just take God's free Grace off the shelf, I preach it to Jews and Gentiles by myself.

Not by guile, stealth, deception,
Nor by anything seen or felt
Just give me God's free Grace
And nothing else

Grace and peace brother

Tony

[Greektim]

Just to clarify, Tony, I only see Eph. 3 teaching that particular revelation of Jew & Gent into one body being the mystery but not the Church specifically. Even in your post #16, you emphasized in bold underlined "revelation" in vs. 3 & "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men...now revealed" in vs. 5 making the correct connection. So technically, the Eph. 3 does not say that the Church is a mystery.

Your thoughts?

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Greektim

Just to clarify, Tony, I only see Eph. 3 teaching that particular revelation of Jew & Gent into one body being the mystery but not the Church specifically. Even in your post #16, you emphasized in bold underlined "revelation" in vs. 3 & "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men...now revealed" in vs. 5 making the correct connection. So technically, the Eph. 3 does not say that the Church is a mystery.

Your thoughts?

Eph. 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Tim, forgive me for saying this, but I think you are hung up on prefabbed, preconceived scholastic theological "systems". The answer to your, to me, incorrect assumption here can be found by reading Eph. 3, backing up two chapters, reading, then going forward 3 chapters, and letting the Scriptures interpret themselves rather than interpreting them through a prefabbed theological "system". Correct me if I am wrong, I think you want to force the present church, the present Body, back into Acts 2 under Peter. That church no longer exists and will not exist until such a time as the departure of this Church out of the world takes place.

Ro 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Ro 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Ro 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Ro 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be [B]graffed into their own olive tree?/B]

Just as the three Biblical dispensations are found in Eph. 2, all three churches I demonstrated to you is found in these passages in Romans 11:

The Olive Tree- The Messianic/Apostolic church of Peter, James, and John, Believing Israel, you prophesied church of Matt. 16.

The Wild Branches- The mystery Body of Eph. 3. made up of Jews and Gentiles, equal. Nowhere in the OT was it ever said, spoken, prophesied, that Gentiles would ever be equal to Israel.

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

Gen. 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

In the OT no Gentile could be exalted without the exaltation of Israel. "But now":

Ro 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

It is nowhere revealed in the OT that the Gentiles would receive salvation APART from Israel and her rise, but now, through Israel's fall we are made nigh by the blood of Christ. Don;t read your theology brother, read Eph. 2.

The Natural Branches- National Israel that was broken off for unbelief but will be grafted in again in the Tribulation when they again believe to form the basis for the Millenial Kingdom under Christ.

I don't know what "progressive dispensationalism" is. I mean, I know 20 people who claim to be P/Ds, and have 20 different definitions of what it is.
Paul's revelation of the three dispensations was not "prograssive", it was hid in God before Genesis 1:1 until revealed to Paul. Brother Tim, if you're going to understand what I am saying then you are going to have chuck "progressive" dispensationalism and understand progressive revelation.
Peter, James, and John had no idea of Paul's message in Eph. 2 and 3. Thus:

Ga 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

The Olive Tree was the Messianic church prophesied in Matt.16 and fulfilled in Acts 2, Believing Israel. The Natural Branches, national Israel, were broken off in Acts 7 with the murder of Stephen. The Wild Branches were called by Paul, the Jewish-Gentile Body, and grafted into the Olive Tree in Acts 15, as recounted in Gal. 2.

Your turn...

Grace and peace

Tony