[JaeByrd]

Originally Posted by CKG

I would say it is a matter of liberty as long as the method of birth control you use doesn't violate a clear teaching of Scripture. Abortion is a form of birth control that violates Scripture. What about the pill?

IUD, Morning after pill, and all forms of hormonal contraception can act as an abortifacient changing the uterine lining and preventing implantation of a fertilized egg. How often the other mechanisms fail and fertilization occurs is impossible to say. Monthly, every other month, once a year?

[Hayseed]

Originally Posted by Amanda S.

Greetings Mrs. Hayseed



I was just wondering what Scripture you have to support this? Or is it a lack of Scripture on the subject that forms this conclusion?

I am not ready to post my thoughts on this matter as I am still gathering my verses. I've studied this out before but it's been awhile and unfortunately I never wrote it down

I do not mean this argumentatively but am just asking how did you come to this conclusion?

Be blessed!

You must have personal thoughts of your own on this matter,you seem all grown up to me.

You are not ready to post your own until you have scripture to back you up,
can you not hint at what your thoughts are on the issue of birth control?

Have you never reached a conclusion yourself at your age?

I do take some exception to the way you have taken certain words I said and made them bold,thereby adding emphasis that I myself did not do.

Gen.3:16 Unto the woman he said,I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception;

The multiplied sorrow is most noticeably seen in the recurring menstrual cycle and multiple forms of birth control are used to reduce the multiplied conceptions.

The Bible does not forbid contraception.It is not the act of contraception itself that determines whether it is right or wrong...it is the motive.

The Bible presents children as a gift from God,if a married christian couple practice birth control temporarily until they are more finanicial and spiritually secure and not because it would cramp their style to have kids, it is between them and God.
It comes down to motive.
Mrs Hayseed

[Amanda S.]

Yes, SIs Hayseed I have come to my own conclusion. And it is a matter of personal conviction, not necessarily a command for everyone.

I do agree with Sis JaeByrd above and have the resources to offer for anyone wishing to study out how the pill works and other forms of hormonal birthcontrol.

I see no reason why you should take exception to what was highlighted....? It was what I was referring to and what you said. It was only highlighted not to create an emphasis on what you said, but to draw attetion to why I asked the question I did.

I also agree with you as to the motive...That does make a big difference doesn't it?

Be blessed!

[greenbear]

JaeByrd

all forms of hormonal contraception can act as an abortifacient changing the uterine lining and preventing implantation of a fertilized egg

I was not aware of this. If this is true, of which I have no doubt, then the magnitude of babies' lives which have been sacrificed in western culture is hundreds or thousands of times greater than I had realized. I would agree with Mrs. Hayseed that christians don't have to have many, or any children. Natural birth control methods (used in conjunction with each other), i.e. Calendar Rythmn, Basal temperature, etc. can be safe, simple and moral. I have a strong aversion to medical quackery (almost the entire medical establishment) and would never consent to putting all of the chemicals, hormones and poisons in my body that they prescribe.

[greenbear]

I would also like to say that every single one of us has come out of the world system when we were saved. It doesn't matter if we were raised by godly parents in a Christian home or by junkies and prostitutes in a crack house, or any other circumstance, the Lord leads us progressively into truth when He saves us. He does not condemn us for our sins, whether they be committed willingly or in ignorance. I believe that when the Lord sees fit to reveal to us something in our lives that is displeasing to Him it is at that point that we become responsible for that sin. In this matter, His mercy is extended not only to the mother but also to the little baby that is brought directly into his presence. I'm sure everyone is familiar with David's words:

2 Samuel 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Ezekiel 23:37 That they have committed adultery, and blood is in their hands, and with their idols have they committed adultery, and have also caused their sons, whom they bare unto me, to pass for them through the fire, to devour them.

I hope somebody who has studied the topic of children dying before the age of accountability going to be with the Lord would be able to add something here. In any case, I am fully persuaded that the Judge of all the earth does right, in His judgment I trust.

INFANT SALVATION
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org...o/infantsa.htm

[JaeByrd]

Originally Posted by greenbear

JaeByrd

I was not aware of this. If this is true, of which I have no doubt, then the magnitude of babies' lives which have been sacrificed in western culture is hundreds or thousands of times greater than I had realized.

Most people aren't. I've known pastors to suggest to a young couple to go on this or that pill till you're ready. Here is a portion from an article Brandon and I wrote listing how the various "contraceptives" work.

Abortion: Life has already begun. You already know and have tested positive that you are pregnant.

IUD: Intrauterine device. This is a small plastic or metal device inserted into the cavity of the uterus through the vagina. Does not prevent conception from occurring. It creates a hostile environment in the uterus preventing implantation. In addition the IUD has been known to cause infection, repeated miscarriages and sterility.

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration stated in an official report that its effectiveness is “in direct proportion to the quantity and quality of the inflammatory response which it engenders.” The report summarizes the various types of IUDs and the various theories of action, and states that there “is one common thread…” They all ” interfere in some manner with the implantation of the fertilized ovum in the uterine cavity.” (Second Report on IUD’s, Dec. 1978 U.S. Dept of HEW, Food and Drug Administration Document 017-012-00276-5)

RU-486: The same as an abortion, only this time without surgical procedures…It is taken after the mother misses her period and the baby is at least two weeks old. It cuts off an essential hormonal nutrient, progesterone, and the baby withers on the vine, dies and drops off. It has been tried as a once a month menses inducer, but has caused such an upset to her cycle and body rhythms, and has not prevented pregnancies, that such use has been abandoned. (Santen & Haspels, “Failure of RU-486 as a Monthly Contraceptive,” Contraception, vol. 35, no.5, May 1987, p. 433)

The Morning-After Pill: A high dosage of synthetic estrogen. This can work in one of two ways depending on where a woman is in her cycle. If a woman takes it prior to ovulation, the high level of estrogen should block that ovulation, preventing fertilization from happening. If it isn’t in time to prevent ovulation the estrogen will also change the lining of the uterus preventing a fertilized egg from implanting.

Combination Pill: Estrogen inhibits ovulation by suppressing hormones, fooling the body into thinking its already pregnant, thus an egg is not released. Because high doses of estrogen have caused medical problems, lower and lower dosages of estrogen are being used in pills today. The lower the estrogen, the more likely you are to have breakthrough ovulation. Progesterone inhibits ovulation, thickens cervical mucus impeding the travel of sperm to the uterus. If this were the only way the pill worked it would indeed be a contraceptive and not an abortifacient. But, the third way it works is changing the uterine lining so implantation of the fertilized egg into the endometrium does not occur.

“In a natural cycle, the uterus lining thickens under the influence of estrogen during the first part of the cycle, and then matures under the influence of both progesterone and estrogen after ovulation. This development sequence is not possible during a pill cycle because both progestin and estrogen are present throughout the cycle. EVEN IF OVULATION AND CONCEPTION DID OCCUR, SUCCESSFUL IMPLANTATION WOULD BE UNLIKELY” (Felicia Stewart, M.D.;Felicia Guest; Gary Stewart, M.D. and Robert Hatcher, M.D..; My Body, My Health, Consumers Union, pgs. 169,170).

Mini-Pill: Contains progesterone only. Inhibits ovulation, thickens cervical mucus, changes the lining of the uterus so that implantation does not happen should conception occur.

According to “Maternity & Gynecologic Care: The Nurse and the Family” by Irene M. Bobak, (RN,MS,PhD, FAAN, Professor Emerita, San Francisco State University), and Margaret Duncan Jensen, (RN,MS, Professor Emerita, San Jose State University: “Oral progestins. The mini-pill of 0.5 mg or less of a progestational agent daily presumably impairs fertility. Ovulation may occur. Progestational impact on cervical mucus decreases sperm penetration and alters endometrial maturation to discourage implantation should conception occur. (Fifth ed., published by Mosby, 1993, page 1313.)

Depo-Provera: Injectable form of Progestin taken every 3 months. (see Mini-Pill)

Nor-plant: Progestin Implant can be left in up to 5 years. (see Mini-Pill)

It is impossible to tell or say how often which mechanism works in any given cycle. Or how many times breakthrough ovulation occurs, conception takes place, and implantation is stopped. The risks are higher the lower the estrogen dose or with the progesterone only forms.

[Luke]

It's hardly a hard case. There is no grounds in the Bible for having child after child, unless you are Adam or Noah (Not even Abraham had many). I'm quite cynical at the moment of the whole Independent Baptist movement, after being hurt very deeply from being in it. But the women that pop out a baby every 9 months and think that everyone else should be doing it and elevate themselves as spiritual above others just tick me off. If you actually WANT a baby every 9 months and can SUPPORT it, go for it. But I don't think it's right to do just because you think you are "replenishing the earth", and you've taken a command given to Adam and Noah and applying it to yourself.

Anyway, my wife and I want kids but can't really afford to have children yet. Some people say "Just trust God" and we do, and because we trust God we are using contraception (none of the above ones though), because we trust that God is supplying our needs right now, and He will let us know when the time is right for us to have children. I have many problems of my own that I need to deal with before we bring a child into this world.

[greenbear]

I had a handle on the false teacher thing, but I had no idea how like Israel at the time of Christ the "church" is today. Thank God for christians who share the truth about things like "The Pill" as well as many other lies of the world.

But God help "christian" hypocrites. Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

[JaeByrd]

Originally Posted by Luke

But the women that pop out a baby every 9 months and think that everyone else should be doing it and elevate themselves as spiritual above others just tick me off.

I have an issue in regards to that in that some go so far as to encourage getting pregnant again by weaning early. In the 1-3 month old range switching them over to formula. Leaving things in God's hands/timing/control is one thing, but purposely weaning early so you can get pregnant 3-6 months earlier than you would having a normal nursing relationship is stacking the deck in favor of more pregnancies/larger families in my opinion. Not to mention robbing your already born child of what God intended for nourishment and immunities.

In a natural, non scheduled, breastfeeding relationship fertility returns in the 3-9 month range. Depending on how much solids a baby starts to eat and how much nursing is continued. Fertility returns in the 6th or 7th month on average and is diminished until full weaning. (1-2 years is the medically recommended length of time and many of the benefits aren't seen until a full 6 months minimum of nursing.) Until fully weaned some cycles don't even make enough hormones to release an egg. By weaning in the 1-3 month time, before you are even introducing baby food, you have to substitute an artificial milk. If they full wean that early or don't even bother with breastfeeding fertility can return in a cycle or two and they can average one child a year.

Granted the variables change from each couple and some can naturally conceive that early even while nursing, but the very famous quiver full family does this as does several others I've seen. Most of those that really do just leave it to as it happens space out more like 18-24 months between babies not 9-12 months. Some even longer or not at all.

[Hayseed]

I agree with Luke,if couples wish to pop babies out every nine months,go for it.
Others for their own personal reasons who are choosing to wait until the time is right for them as a couple,go for it too.

Neither group should have to explain themselves.

I used to get ABOVE RUBIES a magazine from our church and it was a guilt trip without packing any bags.Luggage loads of true stories of mother's and their ten kids,baking bread and homeschooling,growing vegetables etc...but!the thing is the slant was,"YOU SHOULD BE BEARING KIDS TOO,BAKING BREAD,etc or your'e not a ruby woman.

Iam a grandmother,past child bearing but had thirteen pregnancies myself with only three live sons and an adopted daughter and I would never give that magazine or my 2cents worth to my daughters-in-law that my son's married,or lay any burden on any of my married children and their spouses about an out of bounds Area to me in their married lives.They have come to me and talked to me and I have just hugged them and left it all to God,and I feel very blessed they can come to me and tell me their hopes and dreams about having children oneday.I want more grandchildren as my two have started school,I will not hurry my daughters-in-law up or lay an ugly burden on them that they are sinning for using contraception..I will leave my nose out of their business.

People are too free with what other's "should" or shouldn't be doing.

God Himself must have planned limited births for Eve before the Fall,since after the fall he would increase her conceptions as part of the curse.