[MC1171611]

Originally Posted by aussiemama

Is Paul Washer the idiot that yells at teens and tells them they aren't saved just because they are wearing a t-shirt he doesn't like, or some other similar thing?

Paul Washer is an Ray Comfort-ish Southern Baptist that preaches what approaches Lordship Salvation. While his stress on repentance is good in certain areas ("Christian" teens, dead churches), I believe that making the Gospel all about repentance is wrong. As I was telling someone last night, only 25% of the gospel is about sin (Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again), and when Paul preached on Mars' Hill in Athens, only 2 out of 9 verses included anything about sin and repentance. We have to keep things in perspective: "We preach Christ and Him crucified."

I'm afraid men like Paul Washer, Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron have good intentions, but make the Gospel about repentance when it's really about the Grace of God.

[Luke]

.....

[George]

Originally Posted by Luke

Amen amen amen. Paul Washer caused me to doubt my salvation for ages, because I was constantly looking at myself and judging my holiness.

His "famous" sermon, the one that is "so shocking and biblical he was never invited back" has a lot of good points in it, and it is very convicting, and I believe God has used it for some good, but there is a lot of false doctrine/works based salvation in it. I have seen Arminians/Holiness defend that sermon as being totally biblical, claiming that washer teaches you can lose your salvation (he is a calvinist, so he doesn't teach that at all, at least not in his statement of faith).

It seems to me that a bunch of self righteous hypocrites of the southern baptist/new evangelical pursuasion have claimed washer for their own. He helps to make them seem holy and teaching the truth, compared to the majority of charasmatic churches in the states.

The things he says about "easy believism" are both good and bad. No, a prayer doesn't save you, but yes, if you ask Jesus to forgive you, believing He will, then He will. Washer's idea of salvation is begging God for it, like God has His free gift, but He is only offering it to people who beg for it and grovel and do some kind of penance.

I don't know what his work is like on the mission field. He may do a lot of good, but I know that I cannot promote him, because he is a calvinist, and I find that doctrine deplorable.

Aloha brother Luke,

I appreciate your comments (Posts) and your desire to want to serve the Lord according to His word.

I know nothing about Paul Washer or his ministry, but I do apply these Biblical principals and precepts when examining anyone or their ministry.

1. Galatians 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

2. Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.

Now I know no one is totally "doctrinally pure" (i.e. without any error), but we all should be striving to be doctrinally pure (i.e. without "leaven") - just as we should be striving to live our life in Christ without sin.

In this age of Apostasy" it is extremely difficult to find any "famous" Christian who isn't shot-through with false teaching and doctrine, and that is why I avoid almost all of them entirely and will not recommend them to the brethren.

As you go about your service to our Lord, I highly recommend that you remember Paul's words to the Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Originally Posted by MC1171611

Paul Washer is an Ray Comfort-ish Southern Baptist that preaches what approaches Lordship Salvation. . . it's really about the Grace of God.

The grace of God is not a cloak for sin and self-willed pleasure. Gal. 5:24 says, they who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. When folks stop making men their lord (and security), and if they ever come to hear the True Shepherds Voice for themselves, they will learn that Jesus tells us the grace of God is the power of God which conforms one to the image of His image (Romans 8:29). It's not just some "unmerited favor" of God, but it is the POWER of God given to those who believe He is God and a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Who flee self-love, and take refuge in the only hope there is, which is the Lord Jesus Christ. We're being born again by the living Word of God, "renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him", WHERE "Christ is all, and in all" (Col. 3:10).

"No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost" (1 Cor. 12:3). This is our walk, in Spirit and in Truth. You shall know those who are Christ's by their fruit, the Holy Spirit will declare it. Gal. 5:19-21 clearly shows us the fruit of the flesh, and Gal. 5:22-23 show us the righteousness of God (which is not produced by those who walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit).

The faith of Abraham is that which is reckoned as righteousness (Rom. 4:12). He believed in his heart that the Lord would bring out of his very own bowls, a holy and blameless new man. His walk with the Lord proved his faith (he lived as, and confessed that he was a stranger in the land of promise). "He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And BEING FULLY PERSUADED that, what he (God) had promised, HE WAS ABLE ALSO TO PERFORM. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:20-22). He loved the Lord with all of His heart. God told Abraham, "I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect" (Gen. 17:1). "And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise (Hebrews 6:15).

"he that shall endure (overcome the world, flesh, and the devil) unto the end, the same shall be saved" (Mat. 24:13).

COMPARE JOHN 3:16 AND HEBREWS 5:9
-Faith and obedience work together. Take a look at Romans 8:7-8. does it say it is impossible to please God while walking after the flesh (sin, rebellion)? Again, in Hebrews 11:6 does it say that it is impossible to please God without faith?

If we can continue to walk after the flesh (sin, rebellion), than what did we ever repent of? "And they that are Christ's HAVE crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts" (Galatians 5:24). "For if ye live after the flesh, YE SHALL DIE: but IF ye through the Spirit do mortify (put to death) the deeds of the body, ye shall live (here is your salvation, you must overcome the deeds of the flesh). FOR AS MANY AS ARE LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD, THEY ARE THE SONS OF GOD" (Romans 8:13-14).

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, AND SUCH ALIKE: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that THEY WHICH DO SUCH THINGS SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD" (Galatians 5:19-21). <- - - Salvation is a walk - - - overcome these unto the end!

Now the fact that one is being saved and under grace, is the very fact that they are producing the fruits of righteousness (Gal. 5:22-23), because grace is the power of God to conform us to the image of Jesus Christ (Rom. 8:29). The grace of God perfects love in us, so that we can love like Christ (posses the land). Did we just read in Gal. 5:24, those that belong to Christ no longer walk in the flesh (sin, rebellion)?

LIKE THE PHARISEES, CONGREGATIONS TODAY SET ASIDE THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD FOR THEIR TRADITIONS (FALSE SECURITY), AND COMMANDMENTS OF MEN!

"For God hath not called us unto uncleanness (an unclean thing - defiled), but unto holiness. He therefore that despiseth, despiseth (rejects) not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit" (1 Thessalonians 4:7-8).

If the Lord has ALL of our heart, He gives us the grace (which is the power of God) that leads us to overcome the flesh, the world, and the devil. (IF HE DOESN'T HAVE ALL OF OUR HEART, WE'RE A ADULTERESS, AND YOU WILL NOT BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF CHRIST. LIKE JAMES TELLS US, HARLOTS DO NOT RECEIVE ANYTHING FROM THE LORD). No salvation (which is being saved from the wrath of God). Endure unto the end.

It is all Jesus!! Yet He asks this harlot generation today that blesses God but curses her neighbor, "why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46)

[KJBPrincess]

truewars, are you saying that a true Christian won't sin after he gets saved?

[Luke]

More than likely he is one of these internet evangelists that substitutes the true gospel for repentance and works and quotes nothing but Matthew 7:21-23 and James chapter 2.

He was probably originally influenced by Ray Comfort, and then found Paul Washer through one of the billion links to his "Sermon so shocking and (un)biblical he was never invited back".

Noone here has said a sinner has a license to sin. But there is a difference between being saved, and serving God. There is a difference between salvation and discipleship.

You post as if we here are all loving our sin, rolling about in it while shouting "Grace Grace, God's Grace!"

This is the impression that I get from the "forsake your sins to be saved crowd". I am pretty sure they think free-gracers love sinning and just want an excuse for it.

As I have said before, the evidence of Salvation is BELIEVING Jesus died for your sins (don't quote James 2 at me. The devils believes in one God, and it mentions nothing about the atonement in that whole chapter).

1 John 5:9-13 tells us that if we believe the RECORD that God hath given of His Son, we are born again. John 3:16 tells us how to be born again. Salvation is easy. Discipleship is hard.

I would agree with everything you have said above about how a Christian should live, but you give away your mentality in the first line.

Vince said nothing about sin or self willed pleasure (and I must ask, do you have any non-self willed sin in your life?), yet you respond as though he is saying that sin is a wonderful thing.

Is the Kingdom of God the end of our salvation?

Jesus said it was on earth IN US.
Paul said it was not meat and drink but joy, righteousness and peace in the Holy Ghost.

So if a saved person is walking in the flesh, they won't be walking in the spirit, and they won't have peace joy and righteousness in the Holy Ghost. They will be doubting, worried, anxious and chastised.

EDIT: There are several threads on eternal security in here. Perhaps you should browse through one and take your argument there?

EDIT2: You picked and choosed your verses carefully in regards to Abraham. First of all, the covenant between Abraham and God was unconditional. God was the only one that promised anything. When they cut the sacrifices to seal the deal, Abraham was set aside, and God alone moved between the covenant sacrifices. Abraham was not a part of it. Secondly, he wasn't entirely patient was he, since he tried to sort it out his own way and slept with someone who was not his wife, bringing all sorts of chaos about for Israel. Thirdly, his first reaction to God was doubt.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by truewars

Now the fact that one is being saved and under grace, is the very fact that they are producing the fruits of righteousness (Gal. 5:22-23), because grace is the power of God to conform us to the image of Jesus Christ (Rom. 8:29). The grace of God perfects love in us, so that we can love like Christ (posses the land). Did we just read in Gal. 5:24, those that belong to Christ no longer walk in the flesh (sin, rebellion)?

It is also important for us to understand the difference between Ephesians 4:22 and Romans 6:6. The old man [the man without Christ] is indeed crucified with Christ (Romans 6:6) and we can know this fact as a present “spiritual” reality by faith.

What I mean by “spiritual reality” is that we have not been literally or physically nailed to a cross and our flesh has not “literally” died and been buried in the grave. It’s a spiritual reality. The words “old man is crucified” are in the “aorist tense” which usually refers to the past tense and denotes something that has happened, not needing to be repeated. Praise God, Christ has finished the work of redemption once and for all. The phrase “is crucified” is also in the “passive voice” which represents the subject [the old man] as being the recipient of the action.

This does not mean, however, that the former conversation [manner of life, conduct, or behavior] is gone from your daily experiences of life. This is why we are taught that the “former conversation” of the old man must be put off [to put off or aside or away] on a daily basis.

Put off is in the “middle voice” which indicates the subject performing an action upon himself (reflexive action) or for his own benefit. The subject in this case is the true believer. Ephesians chapter four also admonishes to be renewed, put on, put away, sin not, let not, let no, grieve not, and let all. We obey these admonitions by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ—for the just shall live by faith.

BUT WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU SIN? Remember, James 2:10 says, "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

So what if we sin--just ONCE after becoming a born again believer?

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

We have liberty in Christ to do what's right, and the effectual, powerful, permanent, and immeasurable grace of God is there if you don't. This is not a divine permission slip to sin. But it's important to understand there is a Biblical difference between "positional" grace and "operational" grace.

The Word of God speaks for itself Luke, Jesus is the source. Jesus is all I posted, if something is jumping up and down inside any of you by what I posted, that's called a strong-hold (unless your rebellious, their might be something else in their jumping up). When we hear any part of the Word of God that doesn't fit in our doctrine, that strong-hold comes up to defend what we know. Another words, we're really saying that have "all the light", and so the ears are uncircumcised to hear any truth that doesn't fit in our structure (which has our heart). If we love the Truth, we will let the Word of God tear down any strong-holds we may have received. Or, we'll do what the Pharisees did who couldn't hear the words of Jesus, because their traditions (a form of godliness) had their heart. God didn't have their heart or they could "hear" the words of God. Jesus said these guys wanted to do the lusts of their father.

Brethren DO NOT walk after the lust of the flesh, if they are they are not brethren. You will know them by their fruit (pride, greed, anger, etc). "He that committeth sin is of the devil" (1 John 3:8). "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin" (1 John 3:9). "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world (lawlessness), according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in (inside) the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others" (Ephesians 2:2-3).

This is why the church is a dwelling place of demons today. The crowd runs to the devil, they don't run to Jesus. --John 3:20-21

There are many questions regarding what I posted, and many of the questions are just defending sin. If we choose to hold on to any sin, we're being stubborn and rebellious to God. This isn't loving the Lord with all of our heart. 1 Samuel 15:23 says “stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry”. Any sin that we will not give up and put under the Blood of Jesus, is an idol (another ref: Col. 3:5-6). If we choose to hold on to any sin we make ourself a enemy of God (james 4:4). Enemies of God do not go to heaven (Mat. 7:21). The Lord says we must deny our self, and take up our cross (to crucify these lusts), and not let them conceive (Mat. 16:24-25), if it conceives it brings death (Jam. 1:15). Again, the wages of sin is going to be death (Romans 6:23).

If we sin, we have a place to put our sin. Under the Blood of Jesus Christ, but not when you know better and go on in your sin and rebellion against God! There will be no place to put your sins, and you will die in them. It time for the church to wake-up and seek the Lord. And learn the fear of God. "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses (a man went to collect wood on the sabbath and God said stone him to death): Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people" (Hebrews 10:26-30).

The Rich young ruler chose to hold on to greed. And UNLESS he repented later on, and he denied himself, took up his cross and followed Jesus he is in hell today. Which is where many who are calling themselves Christians are heading, unless they repent and get back to the First Love. To be carnally minded is death (Romans 8:6)

The wrath of God is on the rebellious, and it's eating them away like a moth and yet they don't even know it. The church today does not understand the judgment of God. "Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron; Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High: Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help. Fools because of their transgression, and because of their iniquities, are afflicted. Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!" (Psalms 107:10-12, 17, 21).

[MC1171611]

Well, we know Paul is in hell because he served the law of sin with his flesh. (Rom. 7:25) Of course Jesus was talking to the JEWS who were waiting for a KING and an earthly KINGDOM in Matthew, but we can still rip it out of context, ignore Paul's teachings on soul liberty, and apply it to us today so we can enslave people to the rudiments of the law and bondage of works. Of course Lot is in hell because he got drunk and slept with his daughters, even though the Bible calls him "just Lot." What does the Holy Spirit know, anyway?

</sarcasm>

Originally Posted by MC1171611

Well, we know Paul is in hell because he served the law of sin with his flesh. (Rom. 7:25) Of course Jesus was talking to the JEWS who were waiting for a KING and an earthly KINGDOM in Matthew, but we can still rip it out of context, ignore Paul's teachings on soul liberty, and apply it to us today so we can enslave people to the rudiments of the law and bondage of works. Of course Lot is in hell because he got drunk and slept with his daughters, even though the Bible calls him "just Lot." What does the Holy Spirit know, anyway?

</sarcasm>

"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Paul here was demonstrating a lost person still dead in sin, and without Christ. But than, Paul writes: "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord (He is thanking Jesus for giving him a place to put his sins, and NOW giving him of His Spirit to overcome sin through being led by the Spirit). So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin (Romans 7:24-25). "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified" (Romans 2:13). "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, but after the Spirit" (Romans 8:4).

"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine" (1 Timothy 1:9-10).

HEBREWS 5:9

You harlots call obedience to God works because you're lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God. You start drawing near to God and He'll draw near to you, "Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded (harlot)". Stop agreeing with the devil and start agreeing with God, not with your lips but with your heart. Start crying "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?".

The sacrifices and rituals where done away with in Christ, but the law of God remains. You who tamper with the law, tamper with that which defines the very image of the divine nature of God (the image of Jesus Christ). That is antiChrist! You cannot separate that law from the divine nature which defines the image of Christ Jesus. Jesus as he fulfilled the law of God, became the very express image of God (Heb. 1:3). He loved the Lord with all of His heart, mind, soul, and strength. When you do this, supernaturally you become something you are not. This is the true Grace of God, working in you. Giving you power over sin. Sin, separates you from God. When you are in covenant with Christ, the Lord writes His law upon your heart and mind.

Mark 12:30-31 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.