[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Amanda S.

Yes, I agree that we should certainly love the brethren. The Bible is very clear on that.

However, I am still not convinced that God "loves" the wicked, at least not in the way we think of love.

Psalm 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
7 For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

If the Lord loveth righteousness, then He would hate unrighteousness. In this same passage it says He hates the wicked. There are so many more verses that state the Lord abhors, hates, laughs at the wicked etc...

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Consider what Matthew Henry says:

“He is a holy God, and therefore HATES THEM (the sinner), and cannot endure to look upon them; the wicked, and him that loveth violence, HIS SOUL HATETH... Their pros-perity is far from being an evidence of God’s love...their abuse of it does certainly make them objects of HIS HATRED. He hates nothing that He has made, yet HATES THOSE who have ill-made themselves.”

I know you all are not ignorant to these passages. But I am wary of passing over this Scripture and excusing it away dispensationally.

Again, just some thoughts. I am not coming down dogmatically on either side...not yet anyway

Greetings Sister Amanda. My answer on post #8 was an answer for your specific question:

You wrote: I recently posted a status on my FaceBook that Mahatma Ghandi is actually the one that is quoted as saying "Hate the sin, love the sinner" to which several responded that it was a godly attitude to have...

Is there Scripture that supports this specifically?

I answered yes there is and gave scripture as to why I believe that.

Concerning this question:

You wrote: If so, how does one reconcile this "godly attitude" with Psalm 5:5?
"The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity."

The Bible is crystal clear.

Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

The foolish shall not stand in His sight and He hatest all workers of iniquity. I don't know what there is to understand here. The Bible says what it means and means what it says.

But the Bible is also very clear that God loves sinners. He loves me and I am a sinner. Remember, every thought, every word, and every deed is judged by a Holy, pure, righteous, and perfect all knowing, all powerful, ever present God. So what hope is there for this wretched life? Jesus Christ! Keep this in mind, those of us who are now in Christ and still commit acts of sin (and we do), will stand before God only because:

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Concerning Psalms 11:5-7:

Psalms 11:5-7 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

The Bible is once again very clear. "The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright."

But here comes Jesus Christ again. How can we still commit sin and still stand before a righteous and Holy God? How can God love me when the Bible says he hates a proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, an heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, a false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren?

Jesus Christ, that's how. I am righteous in Him! Not I but Christ!

[Amanda S.]

Forrest, I am grateful for your insight.
Yes, you did very well in your explanation of the Scriptures and answering my original question.
I am afraid I did a poor job in my last post as I jumbled thoughts and Scripture quotations.
Hopefully tomorrow I can post more on this in a more organized thought pattern.
And Cody1611 tomorrow I will type what Doc says in his Psalms commentary. It is not what most will want to hear

[Cody1611]

Originally Posted by Amanda S.

Forrest, I am grateful for your insight.
Yes, you did very well in your explanation of the Scriptures and answering my original question.
I am afraid I did a poor job in my last post as I jumbled thoughts and Scripture quotations.
Hopefully tomorrow I can post more on this in a more organized thought pattern.
And Cody1611 tomorrow I will type what Doc says in his Psalms commentary. It is not what most will want to hear

You can quote it, but I have his commentary on Psalms. Go ahead for the others though.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Luke

It's not about reconciling the Bible and Ghandi. It matters not what Ghandi says or said.

It's about the Pauline Epistles and the rest of the word.

Psalm 5:5 is true. But in the OT, the words "sinners" is used mainly of the gentiles and those israelites that chose to worship idols. In the NT, it becomes a common term for all men. Psalm 5:5 is also written BEFORE the crucifixion

The Pauline Epistles and the gospel and epistles of John speak of Jesus being propitious to the point of infinite. Therefore, if Jesus is the propitiation, and God is satisfied with the blood sacrifice, there is no need for God to be angry NOW, as all man can freely come to Him, because Christ has removed the barrier between God and man. Throughout the Johannine & Pauline Epistles, we find many verses on love. John 3:16, Romans 5:8, Galatians 2:20 to name a few. God's love to all sinners was demonstrated on the cross, and God's eyes are fixed upon the blood and upon His Son, which appeases his wrath. However, when a man stands before the Throne of God without the blood, that's a whole other story, and I wouldn't want to be that man in that day.

There is nothing stopping a sinner coming to God today, because God is satisfied with Jesus Christ. God is not mad.

This teaching that God is continually mad is Roman Catholic. I find little scripture except for two Psalms. It seems whenever this topic comes up, rightly dividing gets thrown out the window and God becomes a God of hate, because of two verses written in and for another dispensation.

HOWEVER, having said that, I do not think it is acceptable to tell people that they are OKAY IN their sin. But rather than tell them "God hates you" as some streetpreachers do, a better solution would be to first warn them of coming judgment because of who they are (sinners), and what they have done (sins), and then to expain God's grace to them this hour, and not to tarry, for the blood is there for them to wash in, but when they stand before God, it won't be.

God bless
Luke

EDIT: An additional note - as I spoke before about rightly dividing, the context of the Psalm is "STAND IN GOD'S SIGHT". One could take this to mean - before the Great White Throne. There are many fools who unrighteously stand before God and blaspheme his name today, but nothing happens to them... but something will, when they are in God's sight.

No truer words were ever spoken, Luke. This is why I despise the ministry of Kirk Cameron so much, is his condemnatory manner with sinners and why I have refused some people to participate in the street ministry we have here.

I don't mean to stray from Amanda's question, I think she brings up however what is most important in the most important thing we exist for: Bearig Christ's name to Gentiles, kings, and children of Israel. I know of nowhere the phrase is found as quoted in Scripture with the exact wording, the precept is found in the Scriptures:

Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
II Cor. 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

This is no "great commission" in the Scriptures, there are seven "great commissions" in the Scriptures. Five are to the 12 Apostles regarding the restoration of Israel, one to Paul personally, the last one in II Cor. is found above and the only operative one today.

Luke, I sense a compassion in sister Amanda for the lost, and I know your heart, and I'd be proud to have either or both on the street with me.

Grace and peace

Tony

[Luke]

It's not an issue I want to divide over either Bro Tony

I know for a fact that Cody and Vendetta Ride both believe God hates sinners (unbelievers) present tense. And yet both of them DO NOT tell sinners God hates them, unlike some street preachers I can think of and will publicly rebuke if they ever show their rants on this forum again (a few of them love to film their foul mouthed rants and then share them amongst the brethren, hoping for a few amens).

I have spent much time in email with one of them, even having some fellowship, helping him with some personal issues and praising God together, but he is unrepentant in his attitude. A recent facebook quote from him was "<name omitted> spent some time with some christians fellowshipping over the doctrine of God's hatred towards sinners".

That must have been an edifying fellowship...

"Praise the Lord God hates sinners"
"Thank you Lord that we are not like this here publican!"

Anyway, regardless of whether you believe God hates sinners now, or his anger is satisfied and God does not hate sinners now, we can all agree on one thing, without the blood of Christ applied, no man can stand before God, small or great. But our attitude towards sinners today is "God commendeth His love towards us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us". And if that is God's attitude, it should be ours as well, and our message.

God bless

[Jassy]

I could be way off here - but I'll write what I believe from the scriptures. The Old Testament is primarily for Israel/Jews. It is, of course, directed to them and the LAW is directed to them. Sin was defined as the breaking of the Law and, therefore, ALL are guilty. After Jesus' death, burial and resurrection, we come into a NEW relationship with God. We become BLOOD-bought and God no longer sees our sin: past, present and future. We are covered by the blood of Christ. All of us had sin when we were saved. And all of us continue to have sin - since we are yet in that sinful Adamic body. Paul very wisely stated:

Romans 7:14-15 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

It is important here to note the verb tenses. Paul says I AM carnal (present tense), sold (past tense - it's done!) under sin. For that which I do (present tense) I allow not:... (present tense), etc.

Paul is very clearly stating that he was STILL YET in a sinful state. He still sinned. And we, also, still sin.

I thank the LORD that, in my weaknesses, He is made STRONG. And when I do sin, I know that I am covered by His blood. That is something that I cannot EVER be righteous enough to do. Nor can I account it to myself - but the LORD has accounted it to me. It WAS, and remains, a FREE gift.

For that, I praise Him, who - in His work at the cross - accomplished salvation for me and FORGAVE me. It is finished - He did it and I know that I am forgiven - past, present and future.

Jassy

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Jassy

I could be way off here - but I'll write what I believe from the scriptures. The Old Testament is primarily for Israel/Jews. It is, of course, directed to them and the LAW is directed to them. Sin was defined as the breaking of the Law and, therefore, ALL are guilty. After Jesus' death, burial and resurrection, we come into a NEW relationship with God. We become BLOOD-bought and God no longer sees our sin: past, present and future. We are covered by the blood of Christ. All of us had sin when we were saved. And all of us continue to have sin - since we are yet in that sinful Adamic body. Paul very wisely stated:

Romans 7:14-15 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

It is important here to note the verb tenses. Paul says I AM carnal (present tense), sold (past tense - it's done!) under sin. For that which I do (present tense) I allow not:... (present tense), etc.

Paul is very clearly stating that he was STILL YET in a sinful state. He still sinned. And we, also, still sin.

I thank the LORD that, in my weaknesses, He is made STRONG. And when I do sin, I know that I am covered by His blood. That is something that I cannot EVER be righteous enough to do. Nor can I account it to myself - but the LORD has accounted it to me. It WAS, and remains, a FREE gift.

For that, I praise Him, who - in His work at the cross - accomplished salvation for me and FORGAVE me. It is finished - He did it and I know that I am forgiven - past, present and future.

Jassy

Hello "Sassy" Jassy. (I just could not resist the obvious rhyme.) What is your understanding of these two references?

Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psalms 11:5-7 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

This certainly does not apply to those who are now in Christ and washed by the precious blood. But what about the lost? Does God still hate all workers of iniquity and the wicked and him that loveth violence as the scripture says?

[PaulB]

I can see where Amanda is coming from:

2 Cor.5:11 “Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;”

The cross of Christ was there to change men – not God, He remains the same regardless forever. To suggest that He isn’t angry with the wicked everyday is to say that God has changed and has now simply re-categorised child molesters, rapists, murderers and adulterers. People aren’t found guilty of sin on the basis of an act alone – they are sinners first. Sin is a state of the heart and thus their sinful acts are the manifestation of whom they truly are.
It isn’t just the acts that God condemns it is the people who carry out the acts. In other words – It isn’t that God just hates adultery being acted out (thus judging our ignorant mistakes) God is angry with rebellion (which is as the sin of witchcraft).

Yes Christ’s death is 100% acceptable before the Father on the behalf of repentant sinners, and He will in no wise cast out any that come to Him. But that doesn’t change the destiny of His enemies and their standing before Him (the cross hasn’t changed their position with God – if they remain in their rebellion they are now in a more serious position).

Ac.17:30-31 “And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”

God bless

PaulB

[greenbear]

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Isa*53:1 ¶ Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isa*53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Isa*53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa*53:4 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa*53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa*53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa*53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa*53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa*53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isa*53:10 ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa*53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa*53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors
.

Isaiah 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.


Ps*22:1 ¶ To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
Ps*22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Ps*22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
Ps*22:8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
Ps*22:12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
Ps*22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
Ps*22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
Ps*22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
Ps*22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Ps*22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
Ps*22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.


Ezekiel 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?


Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name

Romans 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.


Isaiah 28:21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
Isaiah 28:22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.


John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

A rare instance where we are able to read the actual thoughts of Christ.

Isa*63:1 ¶ Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
Isa*63:2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
Isa*63:3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
Isa*63:4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
Isa*63:5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
Isa*63:6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

[Jassy]

Originally Posted by Forrest

Hello "Sassy" Jassy. (I just could not resist the obvious rhyme.) What is your understanding of these two references?

Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psalms 11:5-7 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

This certainly does not apply to those who are now in Christ and washed by the precious blood. But what about the lost? Does God still hate all workers of iniquity and the wicked and him that loveth violence as the scripture says?

Brother Forrest! That cute little nickname made me laugh!! Thank you for the chuckle! (And sis Jennifer says that she will NEVER let me live that one down!)

Well, I believe that God LOVES, very tremendously!

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

AND

1 John 4:10 - Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Now many people have REJECTED that free gift. And I'm sure that God's wrath will come down upon them. We have to remember that the Tribulation WILL happen and it pertains to God's wrath on those that rejected God's supreme gift of His Son.

So to answer your question, God LOVES His creation - and that is why He gave His Son's BLOOD to pay the price for mankind's sins. However, the lost have REJECTED Him. God's Word clearly says that ALL have sinned and also that man is without excuse - because He has revealed Himself, in one way or another, to all of mankind.

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 1:20 - For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

The Word of God tells us that Jesus died for the sins of the entire world - that is both the believers AND the UNbellievers. But one must BELIEVE to have that propitiation for our sins via that sacrifice.

1 John 2:2 - And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The Jews are a past dispensation. We, by grace, are the Church in the present dispensation. And the Jews will again be in a future dispensation (currently they are blinded).

Jesus was God made manifest in the flesh. And He does not change!

Hebrews 13:8 - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

So, yes, God still hates the workers of iniquity. However, He loved them enough to give them the most precious GIFT: that of the BLOOD of His Son, Jesus Christ.

Sometimes it is confusing for people to understand. And I struggled with this myself... but the Bible says that I am covered by His BLOOD, and the Holy Spirit is in me, at the moment that I BELIEVED.

Romans 3:25 - Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Paul cried out, in Romans 7:24 - O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

The answer is JESUS CHRIST, which is clearly seen in the next verse 25:

Romans 7:25 - I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Jassy