[stephanos]

Haha, awesome.

[Brother Tim]

Matthew, well put. Such is the way when we create a metaphor in Scripture where there was none intended.

Originally Posted by bibleprotector

This is a point in passing while you continue to answer and think about the responses.

Jesus said, in Matthew 28:20, that he would be with us alway. Therefore, we should have the exact Word of God as was present in the original in one form today.

Bibleprotector/Matthew: Jesus did promise to be with us alway. However, in John 14, He also states that He will not be with us in bodily/physical/earthly form that our physical eyes can see, but in the form of his Holy Ghost, that is, in Spirit form. I believe we have God's Word perfectly today in Spirit: He "made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." (2Cr 3:6). The Lord Jesus is not with us physically, and neither are His Original Writings.

Steven, et al: Obviously I am not as well-read in the area of textual criticism as you are apparently. Perhaps some (or all!) of my metaphors and selections for comparisons are deficient; that doesn't discount the fact that there are, at least in my opinion, clear parallels between many earthly/ritualistic practices and spiritual fulfillments. In this case, I intend to explore more fully:

	 God the Father
      	       |
       God the Holy Ghost/Spirit
           /       \
Human (Mary)        Human (Book writers)
    |			 |
Jesus, the Living   The Holy Scriptures
  Word		     The Written Word
   |  			|
Apostles (Copies     First Copies to
of the Original:      the Churches         - Conjecture
Jesus)	            (Copies of the Original)
   |			|
Disciples	  Copies of the Copies   - Conjectures
   |			|
Gentile Disciples    Translations?	-  Conjectures

There is clearly a parallel in the root, and I don't believe this to be an accident, but of design, by our infinitely creative Lord and God Himself. As for the other conjectures, or expansions, of the metaphor, they are just that: conjectures on my part, based on what appears to be truth in the parallels above. What I have noticed is that nobody has successfully attacked the basis for the parallel/metaphor itself, but only my conjectures.

[PeterAV]

Originally Posted by bibleprotector

This is a point in passing while you continue to answer and think about the responses.



Jesus said, in Matthew 28:20, that he would be with us alway. Therefore, we should have the exact Word of God as was present in the original in one form today.

*******
Absolutely correct.

[bibleprotector]

CM:

neither are His Original Writings

So you deny that God has been able to keep His Word via copies through history, and deny that it can be gathered, and that it can be ascertained today... moreover, you deny that we can know/read/hear His exact Word (because, after all, who can see or feel Jesus today?).

In your connection of Bible history with Church history, you have a view that people are less like Christ than ever, because you indicate that today's Bibles are not like the Original. In other words, you have a weak God who cannot preserve His Word, and cannot save people properly. Thus, instead of believing that Christ builds His Church, you have a decaying Church along with His incorrupt Word suffering from entropy.

BP: I do not deny that God can keep His exact Word; I suggest that God has not kept His Word on earth, Just as God has not kept Jesus on earth - not that He could not do it, but just that He didn't.

Your conclusion is based on your assumption that I deny that God keeps His Word - I do not and have not denied that. But yes, people are less like Christ than ever, as many scriptures read that near the end, weakness will reign in the church, and yes, we have a decaying Church in the sense that most Christians today as very weak, spiritually. Yes, Christ is building His church - in numbers, from what I see, but not in spiritual strength. "In other words", I have an infinitely strong God who Has preserved His Word, living and written, in Heaven, and saves people properly, even though we see through a "glass darkly".

(I wish I could go more into this right now, and reply faster, but I'm on my honeymoon!!)

God bless,
Jon

Originally Posted by bibleprotector

CM:

So you deny that God has been able to keep His Word via copies through history, and deny that it can be gathered, and that it can be ascertained today... moreover, you deny that we can know/read/hear His exact Word (because, after all, who can see or feel Jesus today?).

In your connection of Bible history with Church history, you have a view that people are less like Christ than ever, because you indicate that today's Bibles are not like the Original. In other words, you have a weak God who cannot preserve His Word, and cannot save people properly. Thus, instead of believing that Christ builds His Church, you have a decaying Church along with His incorrupt Word suffering from entropy.

[bibleprotector]

But yes, people are less like Christ than ever, as many scriptures read that near the end, weakness will reign in the church, and yes, we have a decaying Church in the sense that most Christians today as very weak, spiritually. Yes, Christ is building His church - in numbers, from what I see, but not in spiritual strength.

Like having "no pure Bible today", you also have a weakening Church before the return of Christ. I disagree on both views (which are related).

I already quoted concerning the Laodicean prophecy, that there are true believers at that time. Just because there may be large numbers of weak, compromised, apostate and rejected-by-Christ "Christians" does not reflect truly upon the work of God.

My view of Ephesians 4:13 must be opposite to yours, "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ".

And when it comes to the Scripture perfection, and the claim that "God has not kept His Word on earth", it appears that you do not believe 1 Peter 1:21, 23, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. ... But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you." The Bible right now that gets people born again upon Earth is supposed to be incorruptible. You are arguing for only corrupt manifestations of His Word today upon the Earth.

I suggest that God has not kept His Word on earth

What an unjust and weak God would not keep His Word, and would fail to provide it for His people at the end! This would be saying that antichrist and error are greater than the work of God in history. The Pagan Roman Empire didn’t stop Him, but end time apostasy did?!

Jesus said, “and they have kept thy word.” (John 17:6b). How can we obey the Word if it is not fully present? James 2:10 says, “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.” If we do not have the whole law, then how can we be sure that anyone can be saved?

God puts the Word into the hearts of people, but that internal spiritual form must also exist in external form: “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people” (Heb. 8:10). “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them” (Heb. 10:16). Where are the exact laws that a person might read them? where is the writing of the covenant in physical form?

[Brother Tim]

Jon, if your analogy is correct, then there is a diminishing effect as the line moves away from Jesus, to His disciples, to us, the same happening with the text. What then do you do with this verse?

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Hmmm?

Originally Posted by bibleprotector

My view of Ephesians 4:13 must be opposite to yours, "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ".

Our views on that verse must be opposite: as the verse says, "Till we all come in the unity of the faith" - when will all Christians come in true unity of the faith? When we are in Heaven with the "fulness of Christ". As Matthew Henry puts it, "Now we shall never come to the perfect man, till we come to the perfect world ... we never come to that measure till we come to heaven."

(Paul wrote: "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus" (Phil 3:2). Paul did not attain perfection on earth, as he wrote in his epistle, and should we assume that we would if the Apostle didn't?)

Originally Posted by bibleprotector

And when it comes to the Scripture perfection, and the claim that "God has not kept His Word on earth", it appears that you do not believe 1 Peter 1:21, 23, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. ... But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."

I do believe 1 Peter. If you read closely, however, the verses you quoted does not state where the word of God "liveth and abideth" or "endureth for ever".

Originally Posted by bibleprotector

What an unjust and weak God would not keep His Word, and would fail to provide it for His people at the end! This would be saying that antichrist and error are greater than the work of God in history. The Pagan Roman Empire didn’t stop Him, but end time apostasy did?!

I have stated before that I agree with Scripture, as I'm sure you do too, when it says that God has kept His Word. What we do disagree on is where God kept His Word perfectly.

Originally Posted by bibleprotector

Jesus said, “and they have kept thy word.” (John 17:6b). How can we obey the Word if it is not fully present? James 2:10 says, “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.” If we do not have the whole law, then how can we be sure that anyone can be saved? ... Where are the exact laws that a person might read them? where is the writing of the covenant in physical form?

Let's put it another way: how are the old testament saints saved if they did not have the "whole law"? That is, they presumably had no knowledge of the new testament. And, Moses, for example, would not have had knowledge of future old testament writings, yet Moses was considered a "man of God" (Deu 33:1)? Or, David, who was considered a "man after mine [God's] own heart" (Acts 13:22)? They did not have the whole canon of Scripture, did they?

I remember an illustration that Chuck Missler gave on the similarities between Scripture and holograms. When you shine a laser through a holographic plate, it produces a holographic image. Cut the holographic plate in half, and shine the laser through it, and what do you have? It still produces the same holographic image, though degraded in quality. Cut the plate into an eighth of the size of the original, and it will still produce the same image, though even more degraded. In the same way, I believe a man like Job, or Moses, or David, etc. with the small amount of Scripture that they had, would still find the message of the Gospel, though not as clearly as we see it. Alternatively, add erroneous information into the holographic plate; the resulting image will still be visible, but degraded as well. Even if our faithful copies and translations of Scripture may contain errors, the Gospel message is not totally hidden, and God's Word will always be discernable through the guidance and teaching of His Holy Ghost (John 14:26).