[Biblestudent]

Originally Posted by Winman

On the other hand, your views on the Body or Bride thread is better and you have many scriptures to support your view. I do not know if I agree with you yet, I am still looking at the scriptures. But your argument was far more persuasive as you had some scriptures that just might support your interpretation.

A truly believing student of the Bible will have to change his views, especially when confronted by nothing but Scriptures.

I have given a testimony in one of the threads where on that issue ("Body or Bride") I have to change my position. Using typology from Adam to John, and using the Pauline epsitles, I was better in explaining my previous view. Now, he wasn't able to explain to me why he didn't believe it; all he gave me was a LIST of verses.

I looked at the verses so that I could convince him, but I ended up accepting the Scriptures over my "excellent" or "A+" explanations. In other words, no one sat down and convinced me to shift positions. No, I was simply confronted by nothing but a list of Scripture verses; that was enough to change position, from a "systematic theology" to "rightly dividing the word of truth".

[Winman]

A truly believing student of the Bible will have to change his views, especially when confronted by nothing but Scriptures.

Well, that's sounds wonderful, but I don't always see that taking place. For instance, Chette believes Satan or Lucifer fell between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2, whereas scripture clearly states that God's creation was very good in Gen 1:31.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

So, to me, it is obvious that Satan did not fall until after the sixth day. There is not one single scripture to support a gap between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2 or that there was some different "time" in place. I believe time started when God said, "In the beginning". The word beginning cannot even be defined without the concept of time. So, I see someone clingling to a theory despite the fact that I believe it contradicts the clear and simple teaching of scripture.

That is why I ask "who are you?" to teach sound doctrine.

I also do not like that you imply that anybody who does not agree with you is not a "truly believing student of the Bible". There have been many godly men who truly believe the Bible who disagree on some subjects.

[chette777]

Winman,

The Gap or no Gap is not a sound doctrine. Both side use scriptures that are in silence to certain aspects of the ideology of the 6 day creation. the Gap theory goes back to before the time of Christ. it is what we call a non essential Doctrine.

This thread is dedicated to Sound Doctrine for "Christian living". Gap or no Gap has nothing to do with Christian Living.

If you do not like what I share read another thread and ignore this one. as we will be posting more Sound Doctrines for Christians living.

Now if you want to post a Biblically Sound Doctrine for Christian Living then please do so. and just because I have a different view than you towards a Gap that does not negate me from being able to teach Sound Doctrine for Christian Living in a thread on this site.

[Winman]

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.


Here is an example of what I am saying. The scriptures here say that these Pharisees were believers. They were not trying to corrupt the scriptures, they misunderstood them. And I am sure they had many scriptures to support their view as verse 7 says there was much disputing. In fact, the disciples had to go down to Jerusalem to resolve the issue.

Now, I do believe there is always a correct answer to every question like this. But I think we have to be careful not to be dogmatic thinking that we ourselves always know the correct answer to every question.

James 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Winman

Well, that's sounds wonderful, but I don't always see that taking place. For instance, Chette believes Satan or Lucifer fell between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2, whereas scripture clearly states that God's creation was very good in Gen 1:31.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

So, to me, it is obvious that Satan did not fall until after the sixth day. There is not one single scripture to support a gap between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2 or that there was some different "time" in place. I believe time started when God said, "In the beginning". The word beginning cannot even be defined without the concept of time. So, I see someone clingling to a theory despite the fact that I believe it contradicts the clear and simple teaching of scripture.

That is why I ask "who are you?" to teach sound doctrine.

I also do not like that you imply that anybody who does not agree with you is not a "truly believing student of the Bible". There have been many godly men who truly believe the Bible who disagree on some subjects.

Brother Winman, surely you know that none of us get it right all the time--including me and you. There is a time and place to earnestly contend for the faith, and there is a time to move on...letting the Holy Spirit be the Holy Spirit. I happen to agree with you on the GAP Theory...Chette, and other brethren I respect have a differing view. Does that disqualify any of us from teaching the Bible?

I also heed your counsel...we should be very careful about our particular understanding regarding interpretation...showing deference in some cases. Many doctrines that pertain to Christian living, however, are so clear in Scripture that we should all knit together and proclaim them for the purpose of edifying the church body. I may be wrong, but I think that was the intention of this thread.

There have been two doctrines posted on this thread pertaining to Christian living. Perhaps others have a doctrine pertaining to Christian living they would like to share with the body of Christ?

[Winman]

Thank you Forrest for that very respectful answer. And I agree with you, I do believe there are some fundamentals we can all teach.

[Winman]

OK, I will return to the subject at hand. This is in reply to Chette's original post here.

Chette, in the U.S.A., we have what is called "free speech". Under our constitution, not only are we allowed to speak out when we feel the government is wrong, it is our DUTY to speak out.

Here is an example, here is an article against using taxpayer dollars to pay for abortions.

http://www.prolifealliance.com/taxpa...20abortion.htm

Repeatedly, the U.S. government has not only condoned abortion, but it has used taxpayer dollars to pay for abortion. For years there has been a great cry, especially from Christians here that taxes should not be used to fund an activity that goes against one's religious conscience.

I do not believe that speaking out against the government in a case like this is wrong, in fact, just the opposite, to allow the government to do this without speaking out would almost be complicity.

In some countries, people would be jailed for articles against the government like this. We have something a little different here.

But speaking out here is not going against authority or the law, it is the law.

Matt 14:3 For Herod had laid hold on John, and bound him, and put him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife. 4 For John said unto him, It is not lawful for thee to have her.

John the Baptist spoke out against the govenment.

[Winman]

Here are more examples where believers disobeyed government.

Exo 1:15 And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah: 16 And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live. 17 But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive. 18 And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive? 19 And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them. 20 Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty.


Dan 3:16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter. 17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. 18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

[George]

Aloha brother Forrest,

I greatly enjoyed your Post on "The Doctrine of Grace", and I couldn't agree more with your comments, if I had written them myself.

I believe that this is one of the most misunderstood doctrines in the entire Bible, and one that millions of Christians have (and still are) "stumbled" over for centuries.

The "Liberty" that we have in Christ does NOT give us a "license" to sin, but it frees us from the "obligation" of the Law; or ordinances; or rules; or the obligatory observance of them.

Everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) that we DO as Christians, should be with a "willing heart" - (NOT "obligation") that's what God desires. God is seeking those who will "worship Him in spirit and in truth". God wants us to "worship Him IN spirit and in truth" - wholly WITHOUT any "pressure", "intimidation", "threats", "bullying", "coercion", "compulsion", or "force".

Whenever men ADD to the "Doctrine of Grace", they are ADDING to the Holy words of God - "the traditions of men" and are emulating "the rudiments of the world". [Colossians 2:8] God never meant for His church (body) to be like the world's institutions. The church "which He hath purchased with His own blood", and of which "He is the Head" (the ONLY HEAD) is a living "ORGANISM" - NOT an organization or a business!

Thanks so much for the Post - it was a real blessing to my heart, and once again, reaffirms (for me) that we do indeed possess the same Spirit!

[George]

Aloha brother Chette,

The following comments are some of my observations and beliefs concerning this issue:

Re: “Submission to Higher Powers of Governing Authority”

The issue of “submission to higher powers of governing authority” is a very controversial issue, especially amongst American Christians. The question always arises: Are we (Christians) obligated (by the Scriptures) to be in subjection to all laws, without exception?

There are literally thousands of laws in the United States. There are county, city, state and federal laws. There are so many that it is impossible to know them all! Are we to be in subjection to every single one of them? Of course not! We are not obligated to obey any law that runs contrary to the clear teachings of the Holy Scriptures - Like (for instance) the compulsory school attendance laws. To whom do children belong - Parents or Caesar? Whose children are they? To whom did God give them? [Genesis 33:5, 48:9; Psalms 127:3] The issue of authority is far more complex than many Christians make it out to be.

Question: Can we (Christians) take a specific occurrence in the Old Testament, directed towards the nation of Israel, corrupted by sin, and apply it to a New Testament Christian or to the church? {Perhaps sometimes – but not always.}

Question: Was Daniel in total subjection to the “higher authorities” – ALL OF THE TIME?

On one occasion Daniel “requested” to be excused from the requirements of the law, and he and the three Hebrew children with him were excused “lawfully”. Daniel 1:8 But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king's meat, nor with the wine which he drank: therefore he requested of the prince of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself.

On another occasion [Daniel 6:10] Daniel knew that a law had been passed prohibiting him from worshipping according to the dictates of his conscience. In that case: Daniel 6:10 Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.

In the previous Scriptural example, Daniel openly defied the laws of man, and if God hadn’t intervened, he would have suffered the consequences of his actions {which he was willing to do – for his convictions.}

Daniel did not walk into the Lion’s den of his own accord - he was thrown (cast) into it (because he “broke the law of the Medes & Persians”)! Daniel 6:16 Then the king commanded, and they brought Daniel, and cast him into the den of lions. Now the king spake and said unto Daniel, Thy God whom thou servest continually, he will deliver thee.

Either Daniel was in total submission or he wasn’t - there is no grey area in this matter. Moses’ parents resisted “the powers that be”; Moses resisted “the powers that be”; as did most of the prophets (at one time or another). Daniel resisted “the powers that be”, as did the three Hebrew children. Joseph and Mary resisted “the powers that be”; as did the wise men. The Lord resisted “the powers that be”, as did His disciples. Read the Bible – God’s people have always been in conflict with “the powers that be”. And the Bible is real clear as to WHO we should obey when this conflict arises: Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.The admonition is perfectly clear. IF “the powers that be” command or require Christians to obey them rather than God - we are to obey God. {Which means that individual Christians will have to know their Bibles well enough to know “what God hath said”, so they can act on their own (according to Scripture), without the “spiritual guidance” of religious dictators.}

Christians, in the past, often had to obey “the powers that be”, not only because the Scriptures said to, but because, more often than not, they had no choice. What more could they have done? (They either obeyed; or suffered; or died. Rebellion was out of the question.)

Living in a Republic or Democracy “complicates” things for us, because we can (sometimes) go to Court and contest unjust laws; or we can “protest” (peacefully & “lawfully”) laws that we know go against “nature itself” (like ABORTION or SAME-SEX “marriage”); or we can choose to get involved in the election process and work to get decent people elected to office; or (as in our particular situation in 1973) concerning the upbringing, training, and education of our children - we can choose to DEFY the law, and bring up our children in the “nurture and admonition of the Lord”, regardless of what Caesar says.

We have CHOICES that most people in the past didn’t have. Now that doesn’t negate the Scriptural commands concerning the powers that be, it just “complicates” the matter, since according to the Supreme Law of the Land (the Constitution of the United states Of America) - Americans have certain “rights” under the Law that are not supposed to be “abrogated” by the government.

In the early 1980’s (when the “Christian Patriot Movement” was in full swing) I spent quite a bit of time examining their cause and their claims. After much research, I found out that many of the things that they said about the Constitution; individual rights (as delineated by the Constitution); States’ rights; taxes; etc. were true – however, their uses of the Scriptures, to justify some of their actions, was unscriptural and not sound.

Most of their claims could not be supported by history; and although many of the concepts and precepts adopted by our forefathers had a Biblical basis, and many Christians participated in the founding of our country, America was never a “Christian Nation” or “God’s Country” – NOT like Israel. Not only that, many of the “Christian” leaders of the Patriot movement of the 1980's were trying to emulate the early Puritans; that is, it appeared to me that they wanted to set up another “Theocracy” (like the Puritans of old - hello Calvin) which I personally believe is unscriptural..

There are some things that I did learn from my studies though, that have led me to adopt or embrace certain personal convictions, that I believe are in agreement with Scripture, but are not very popular with most of my Christian brethren - such as the “LICENSING” of churches, i.e. the government “incorporation requirement” - a “permission slip” from Caesar to exist; SPECIAL PRIVILEGES given to churches and pastors, the “licensed privilege” to perform marriages & tax exemption; {I wonder what God thinks about His people getting a “tax break” on money supposedly given to Him?}; government control of all education (even “licensed” Christian schools); government control over marriage “licensing” (if the government has the “right” to “LICENSE” marriage, why wouldn’t it have the “right” to DEFINE it?). Like I said before, this is a much more complicated issue than it may appear on the surface.

I have heard pastors say that we are to obey 100% of all the laws of mankind, but when asked about all of the saints, both in the Old & New Testament, who disobeyed or defied certain laws of mankind, they get awfully quite.It’s easy to say or tell others what they should or should not do, but in practice this issue is far more difficult to judge. I certainly am not saying “let your conscience be your guide” in this matter, but what may seem to be rebellion against “the powers that be”, may not be rebellion at all.

When (in 1973) we pulled our children out of the government school and started home schooling them, many Christians did not approve of our actions. Remember, hardly anyone home schooled in 1973. We had “pastors” exclaim that we were “breaking the law” – that we were supposed to “render unto Caesar what is Caesars’”. However, when I would ask the “pastors” who objected to our actions, whose children, are they? Or - since when did God give our children to Caesar? None of them could answer or if they did, their answers never lined up with the Scriptures.

Move forward 35 years and NOW home schooling is an accepted practice (amongst many Christians at least), so the question arises: WHO was right? The “pastors” who condemned what we did, or us? Hmmm? This is why I say this is far more complicated than just – obey ALL of the laws of mankind. The first thing a Christian has to know is - are ALL of the laws of mankind, that they require or demand that we follow, in line with those things that God requires or demands that we follow? And in order to know that, a Christian is going to have to STUDY the Scriptures so that he can know just exactly what it is that God requires of us, and obey those things – regardless of what other Christians may “think” or “believe”, and regardless of what the government may say or do.

I do not believe in or support armed rebellion against the government, but I sure am thankful that our forefathers obtained the liberty that I now enjoy. (Who knows for how much longer?) I am not a “tax protestor”, but much of what the “tax protestors” say about our punitive (“progressive”?) taxes is true; I am in no way an Anarchists, but our government is selectively targeting Christians and prosecuting them, and making “examples” of them, while Humanists, atheists, Muslims, etc. are given a pass.

Christians down through the centuries of church history have always wrestled with this issue. Are we to obey the higher powers 100% like some Christians claim we must, or, if a law is clearly contrary to the Scriptures are we to obey God and trust Him, and live with the consequences, whatever they may be? {Do we "give a pinch of salt" to Caesar or don't we? The Romans didn't care about your religious beliefs, as long as once a year you would take a pinch of salt and say Caesar is Lord. Many first century believers died because they refused to take that pinch of salt. I wonder what most believers would do today?}

Although obeying or submitting to the higher authorities is clearly taught in Scripture (brother Chette clearly demonstrated that) the “problem” arises as to WHAT constitutes legitimate (lawful) Scriptural defiance of the laws of mankind? At the time my wife and I pulled our children out of the government schools, we were roundly criticized by many brethren and condemned by others. Were we wrong? What has changed since 1973? WHY is home schooling “accepted” now, but not then?

We were convinced (after thoroughly searching the Scriptures) that God had given our children to us; (NOT the government) and that we had the responsibility to raise them according to the word of God, which we determined was practically impossible if we continued to send them to the godless, Humanistic, anti-Scriptural, anti-Christian government schools; and based on that conviction, and according to our conscience, we acted on our belief.

Are there contradictions in the Bible? I trow not! However, along with the Scriptural commandments to obey and submit to the higher authority, we have numerous Scriptural examples of many of God’s saints doing just precisely the opposite! What are we to do? We are to examine those instances where God’s people, have acted in defiance of the laws of man, to learn how to challenge the laws of man in a Scripturally “acceptable” way!

I don’t believe my reasoning is “contradictory”. God is not going to encourage LAWLESSNES (even though they are man’s laws) – NOT when He established “The Law” Himself! NOT when He declares that “the law is GOOD” [Romans 7:12, 16; 1Timothy 1:8] How can a Holy and just God encourage “LAWLESSNESS” (even though they are man’s laws), after He has declared the law to be “good”? He can’t! But what he can do is make “allowances” for His people to challenge or defy man’s laws, if they are clearly against His words and His will {Thus the purpose of all of the Scriptural examples of “lawful’ disobedience to the laws of man, recorded in the Holy Scriptures - so that we can know what is “legitimate” disobedience to man’s laws and what is not.}

Since the apostle Paul was a Roman citizen by birth, he often used Roman law to protect himself and those who traveled with him. He also used Roman law to advance his and the Lord’s cause. He emphasized striving “lawfully”, and if Christians today use the laws of the country they reside in to protect themselves, or further their cause, or the Lord’s cause - they are following the “pattern” (or “ensample”) that the Apostle Paul left for us. [1 Corinthians 4:16, 11:1; Philippians 3:17; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 2 Thessalonians 3:7-9; 1 Timothy 1:16].

There are many different examples of “acceptable” disobedience to man’s laws recorded in the Holy Scriptures. I do not believe that God is in favor of lawlessness or rebellion; and yet on the other hand, I have great difficulty suggesting total passivity when it comes to dealing with an intrusive government. What did Paul do? Paul used his “rights” as a Roman citizen at various times. Are we to ignore the "rights" that we have as citizens of the United States?

There are some pastors who “suggest” that if we have the opportunity, under our form of government, to right a wrong or correct an injustice that we are to “ignore” those opportunities and “just let God take care of it”. I believe if we have an opportunity to do right, and protect whatever “rights” that we still have, that we should avail ourselves of that opportunity. Back in the Old Testament, most of the time people were powerless under the authoritarian rule of a king or queen. If those rulers abused their power the people had no choice. It is very dangerous to use the Old Testament to establish a New Testament doctrine.

I believe it behooves us to be extremely cautious in judging other Christians when it comes to this issue. There are clear Scriptural commands for us to submit and obey, and there are plenty of Scriptural examples where God’s people challenged, ignored, disobeyed, and defied some of those laws. It is clear to me that we are not to be LAWLESS, but on the other hand, it is always better “to obey God, rather than men”.

In the end, we Christians must live according to the Scriptural understanding that God gives us. In 1973 my wife and I were “judged” by many of the brethren as being lawless and going against the teachings of Romans Chapter 13. We were convinced (after carefully searching the Scriptures) otherwise, and followed our convictions.

In 1983 the state of Hawaii took us to court and tried to force us to send our children to their godless schools. After spending all of our savings defending ourselves (and our children) in court – God gave us the victory over the State, and ultimately our victory led to the State of Hawaii “liberalizing” their home schooling laws, which made it much easier for those Christian parents who desired to home school their children, but who were fearful of State retaliation.

Today (in Hawaii) we are known as the “pioneers” and “grandparents” of the home schooling movement on the island of Kauai and throughout the State of Hawaii. Did we do right (according to the Scriptures) in defying the “compulsory attendance” laws of the State? I believe we did – most Christians at the time disagreed with us. Who was right? WHO was wrong?

We better be very careful when we judge other Christians when it comes to these matters. It’s not as simple as some Christians would have you believe.

Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.