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#11
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I just carefully read through your post, George, and you show clearly that the sign gifts have ended, using the same scriptures the men I quoted also used. This line of reasoning from the scriptures is fairly new to me and has been more effective than anything else so far in convincing me that the gifts of the Spirit are not for today, and helping me renounce for good the supposed tongue-speaking I had but never felt right about. (I was praying out loud in my bedroom one morning in the early 90s when these sounds suddenly came out instead of English. I discovered I could make them come out any time I wanted after that. It never felt worshipful or holy, never felt right at all, but I definitely was not doing this myself. This continued after I left the charismatic movement, although I asked the Lord many times to take it away if it wasn't from Him. It never went away, I would just sometimes say these sounds out of the blue, so I remained in doubt. It wasn't until very recently, thanks to teaching like yours, that I was finally completely convinced I had to work to rid myself of it, resist it with determination, and I'm still not completely rid of it).
I think you are right that it's mostly women who get this "gift." The very first one to experience it under Charles Parham's teaching was a woman, and it's interesting that the charismatic movement accepts women preachers, which is clearly against the scripture. However, it has been men who have taught these things and promoted them, such as Charles Parham. Even some of the greatest Christian men have accepted the gifts as legitimate, and chide people for doubting that they are from God. It's distressing to me that great teachers like A W Tozer and Andrew Murray and Martyn Lloyd Jones, some of my most favorite teachers, treat these phenomena as legitimate. Leonard Ravenhill, who taught a solidly God-centered call to holiness and revival, criticized those who don't accept the gifts as part of God's coming in revival, while yet strongly advocating that we seek revival. I want revival but I know that if it comes with tongues or prophecy that it's bogus. None of these men claimed the gifts for themselves but by allowing them as legitimate expressions of God's power for today they allowed demons into OTHER people's lives. Emphasizing scripture is of course always right, BUT we have to have pastors and teachers to interpret for us, as rightly dividing the word of truth isn't just automatic on hearing or reading the word, and even with study people disagree on the meaning of different parts of scripture. "Tongues" seems to be different than the other "gifts of the Spirit" since scripture says it was meant for unbelieving Jews. As for the other gifts, as Jerry says in his answer to me, there is a big difference between God's giving healing, or wisdom or discernment in answer to prayer for dealing with particular situations, which of course He continues to do, and the gift of any of these to individuals as they were given to the apostles. But I've continued to wonder all these years about phenomena like the inner "voice" I mentioned above, which isn't one of the "gifts" but is certainly supernatural. I haven't experienced it in years but I also feel I need to know for sure how to tell if something like that is from the Lord or not so I can resist it consistently if it's not. Perhaps the "fruit" is the only test. Since none of these things has done anything to further my walk in holiness perhaps that's all that needs to be said. Last edited by Connie; 03-26-2008 at 10:45 AM. |
#12
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Oh, and as for men promoting the gifts, we have the example right here on this forum of three men who claim they are for today, and NO women making that claim.
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#13
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When I attended the Assembly of God church I experienced what I could only call great spiritual warfare. It was a very frightening thing to me. I wanted to accept what they taught. Their teachings were, to say the least, fascinating. Yet there was just so much I couldn't reconcile. This seemed to cause me fear and confusion. Quote:
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#14
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Thank you so much for your support, Jeff, and for mentioning that you too have heard a voice. Yes, it is very hard to bring up these things, but the reality of demonic involvement really needs to be acknowledged, and really, how can we test the spirits effectively unless it is acknowledged? Those who just declare that they are sure their own experiences of these phenomena are from the Lord without offering any information by which they might be tested are very much at fault.
Yes, fear and confusion ARE the effect in those churches on people who have some spiritual discernment. But if you mention having such confusion they will pompously misapply the verse that the Lord is not the author of confusion, by which they mean that somehow if you are experiencing such a state it's your own fault, without offering a shred of hope to resolve it, but of course the confusion is the natural effect of somehow knowing this isn't the voice of our Shepherd we're hearing while being told that it is. Truly, even the elect can be just about deceived in these terrible days. There must be many of the Lord's in those churches. You've probably hit on it: It certainly doesn't seem that God would speak to you in a meaningless riddle. During a period when I was not yet a believer in Christ but had come to believe in supernatural reality I had a very strange riddle-like vision that had me puzzling over its meaning for years, involving words and numbers written in white by an unseen hand on black space. Very spooky. The devil must delight in getting us to wrack our brains over such things that merely distract us from serving the Lord. Yes, maybe we can agree at least that whatever comes from the Lord would be edifying and serve some purpose in some way we can point to. That's not a specific test given in so many words in scripture as far as I recall, but it's certainly in the spirit of scripture. This stuff makes me mad when I see how I've been dragged through all that deception, and you too, and how others still are, and how they continue to assert that the gifts are genuine and for today based really only on their own experience and a verse or two of scripture. I'm grateful to be finally getting free of it but there are still lingering effects. These things are oppressive and discouraging at the very least. When will total freedom come? Last edited by Connie; 03-26-2008 at 02:07 PM. |
#15
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Sorry it is taking me a while to read through this thread and check out what you are saying. Just wanted to caution you against that scionofzion website - from checking out some of it today, I can see they are Calvinistic and spiritualize Scripture (in one article the author states he believes in Amillenialism - which certainly avoids taking endtimes theology literally).
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The Holy Spirit speaks to me by way of conviction, bringing Scripture back to mind - and it is clear - not some vague impression. It is not an audible voice - though I have had that once or twice. It was so loud, I could not be sure if it was in my heard or if I actually heard it. However, I don't think it was from God, because it bore no fruit, and actually caused me uncertainty. There have been several "visions" of sorts I have had as a young believer - which were like some horoscope - so vague it could mean anything. It seemed like the Devil was trying to get me to rely on impressions and dreams, etc. rather than on the Word of God. When looked at in light of God's Word, I rejected them - and have had a more stable walk with the Lord than those other Christians that I see always looking for signs, visions, prophecies, impressions. And why would the Lord bother to tell you something you already knew? Yes, the Holy Spirit often reinforces things to us - but this seems redundant, in light of the fact you were already praying for her. I do not believe the Devil or demons can indwell or possess a believer - but they can certainly oppress and even influence to a certain point, if you allow him some footholds - look at Ananias and Sapphira: "why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?" In a time of spiritual warfare as a young believer, I literally heard a demonic voice in my bedroom. It scared the daylights out of me (though I could not understand the growling words). I don't want to scare anyone, so I won't relive it for you - though it certainly seemed like the Devil was trying to scare me spiritually. These two passages helped: 2 Timothy 1:7 and James 4:7. So can the Devil make you hear an audible voice? Yes, he even appears as an angel of light to deceive others. Does the Holy Spirit speak audibly to believers? I do not find that in the Bible - I find in the Bible, He guides by the still small voice of conviction/conscience (when reinforced or retrained by the Word of God), Scripture reminders, and inner promptings (not sure what else to call it - but when it happens, you know it is the Holy Spirit prompting you, there is a certainty with it). Quote:
One thing that bothers me is that those who we believe have false gifts (because we believe those sign gifts are done away with) have redefined those gifts. There is nowhere in Scripture where a word of wisdom or a word of knowledge is defined. They either make it refer to wisdom or knowledge in general - therefore they cannot believe they are done away with - OR they define it themselves as some kind of prophetic sense from God, in addition to the Word of God. Those who promote these generally have less respect for and reliance upon the Bible. I believe God gives wisdom and knowledge in answer to prayer and in accordance with His Word - not in contradiction to it or addition to it. Quote:
Hope that helps. I still have a little more of this thread to read. |
#16
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Aloha Connie,
This has been very instructive and beneficial to me. (The testimony from all of the brethren). However, let me be real clear - I do not excuse any man for teaching or participating in false doctrine; leaven of any kind; or false teachings. (I wasn't purposely "picking" on women - I was just testifying to what I observed while I attended a Pentacostal church which, by the way, was always pastored by a man.) I would like to clarify one other thing. You said - and I Quote: "Emphasizing scripture is of course always right, BUT we have to have pastors and teachers to interpret for us, as rightly dividing the word of truth isn't just automatic on hearing or reading the word, and even with study people disagree on the meaning of different parts of scripture." Pastors/elders/teachers are not called of God to "interpret" the word of God for God's people (although a lot of that goes on today). 2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (the word "prophecy" means both "foretelling" and "forthtelling"). Elders/pastors/teachers are given to the church of God for the purpose of "feeding" (Primarily); "warning"; "admonishing"; "reproving"; and "rebuking". We should leave the interpretation of the scriptures up to the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit convinces you of a Bible truth - it will "stick"; if I convince someone of a "truth" they may accept it for a while, but if someone comes along who happens to be more "persuasive" than I, that person might be talked out of their faith or belief in God's word. 1John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 1John 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. This truth applies not only to men - but includes women also! |
#17
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Hello Jerry.
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[Aside: This all reminds me that Scott Johnson who has an ongoing series on end times phenomena, false teachers, the charismatic movement and related things at Sermon Audio, has given a teaching on "Maitreya" a demon-possessed man he believes could be the coming Antichrist (with the Pope the False Prophet perhaps), and he believes that this person plans to communicate by telepathy into the heads of all humanity when he comes, to convince them that he's "The Christ" (The New Age Christ). Whether he could do this by telepathy or by having billions of demons set up to speak into billions of heads is a question but either way I guess it's possible, just gives me the willies to think of it. Johnson's teachings can be over the top, especially when he gets into major conspiracy theories, and his manner can be a tad abrasive too, but he knows his scripture and he does his homework and I've learned quite a bit from him.] Quote:
One thing that has made all this hard to sort out is the idea that if you are really saved and really have the Holy Spirit the demons cannot do such things to you. So for long periods I've worried that maybe I'm not really saved, though I've done everything and believed everything that should show that I am. If these things did not make you question your salvation you must have had a stronger grounding than I have had. But I suppose getting me to doubt my salvation is one of the objectives of such demonic communications anyway, a form of bad fruit. Quote:
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Thanks partly to Scott Johnson's teachings, I'm anticipating demonic activity to a frightening extent in the near future. What I worry about the most is the unsaved people in my family, although I know I myself need much better preparation in scripture for such a time -- if of course the church is going to go through it. Quote:
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Last edited by Connie; 03-27-2008 at 01:30 AM. |
#18
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Aloha back, George.
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Last edited by Connie; 03-27-2008 at 02:09 AM. |
#19
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A friend of mine, who is a Christian lady, is suffering from great pain and sickness. One night when she was in terrible pain she heard a voice say to her "I will heal you now," my friend said she felt a great euphoria and was revelling in this beautiful revelation when the same voice said "You just need to give up your salvation". That brought her back to earth with a bump and she immediately cried out "Never! I will never denounce my Lord Jesus!" and the voice went away.
I do believe that the Lord will sometimes speak to His children with a still small voice - or even with "...as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder:"; but we must be on guard because evil spirits can also 'sound' so comforting, or authoritative and can bring on a sense of euphoria as my friend experienced. This is why we must constantly immerse ourselves in God's Word so as not to be deceived. Blessings |
#20
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