[kevinvw]

I have to agree with the stance that the phrase "for the remission of sins" doesn't mean "to get" the remission of sins, but "because of" the remission of sins.

Jesus didn't merely come to forgive sins, He came to take them away completely. Sins had been being forgiven since Genesis 4 by the blood of bulls and goats, but Jesus blood is the only blood that will redeem them, not merely remit them.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

This is the verse that really clears things up. Jesus is the sacrifice that appeased God, that will clear the sins that God had been putting up with for thousands of years. His righteousness could now be applied to the sins of the past that, through His forbearance, He had been forgiving. Notice verse 26, it has to do with a period of time not just the sins of a man's life.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Notice His blood is shed for the remission of sins. If it was just shed to get forgiveness, then it was no better than the blood of bulls and goats. It was shed to get redemption. It was shed to clear the guilty, which the blood of bulls and goats couldn't do. It was shed because of the sins that have been forgiven by the blood of bulls and goats.

The people of John's ministry were showing that they were repenting because their sins were forgiven. Notice in Isaiah 40:2 that their sins had been forgiven before John shows up. In Acts 2:38 they were repenting of crucifying Jesus Christ, being baptized to show they have repented, their sins had already been forgiven when they repented, and when they did that, they would receive the Holy Spirit.

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Jesus did not come to remit sins, but to redeem them. This is clearly stated in Hebrews 9. He came because the sins of the past had only been forgiven. Yes, Col 1:14 says we can get forgiveness through Jesus blood. I believe that the people in Acts 2 had already been forgiven by Jesus blood, but the only way to get redemption is through the new birth.

[Biblestudent]

Aloha, Bro. George!
Interesting thread that you started... I'll go back here when I have time.

[chette777]

Praying for your illness to heal George.

Looking forward to see your studies on Acts 5, 6 and 7

[Biblestudent]

Originally Posted by chette777

Praying for your illness to heal George.

I didn't know that; I pray for you, Bro. George.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by George

Dear brother Forrest,

I love you in the Lord - BUT you sure make it "hard" on a fellow brother in Christ!

WHY is it - that you ALWAYS ask the toughest questions? I've been "cogitating" on the very same thing that you have asked - WHAT is the "significance" in the differences in water Baptism (BEFORE the cross; AFTER the death, burial, and resurrection - but before the Nation of Israel's "rejection" of the Apostles & their "message"; and AFTER God's "rejection" of the nation of Israel and His turning to the Gentiles?) I believe that they are all "different", but the SIGNIFICANCE of that "difference" - that's another matter for another time, and to be perfectly honest, I'm not sure I know the answer. But, since it is always a "challenge" to try to answer your most perceptive questions - I will attempt to answer these questions also, but NOT today.

I have been fighting a cold (or flu?) since Tuesday and need to store up some "energy" for my next challenge.

George, I am getting emails from friends in Washington state, one in North Carolina, and two down south who are coming down with identical forms of bronchitis as I have. If you have any soreness of the throat and chest with congestion, and brother, this thing strikes within less than one day, hit the doc like white on rice. Satan has his own rebuke and punishment reserved unto him; I wouldn't wish this bronchitis on the devil.

Grace and peace and keep an eye on it brother.

Tony

[Winman]

Bro George

Sorry to hear you are not feeling well, I hope you recover soon.

I read your study, and I think it is excellent, you are a very good teacher and since I have come to this forum I have utmost repect for you. But I do not completely agree with you (doesn't mean I am right).

Now, it's true that Peter addressed the Jews and the nation of Israel only. That is easy to see, and I already knew that long ago. But I do not believe Peter was teaching that if the Jews repented that Jesus would (or perhaps it is better to say could) return to restore the kingdom. I think this is shown in Acts 1.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

When the apostles asked Jesus directly if he would restore the kingdom to Israel at this time, Jesus neither answered them yes or no. Jesus told them it was not for them to know the times or seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

So, for Peter to go out after this and preach that the kingdom would be restored if Israel repented would be completely presumptuous. Think about it, if Jesus gave this answer to you, would you go out and promise that Jesus would return if they would only repent? I know I wouldn't.

And notice that Jesus also told them that they would be witnesses in Jerusalem, Judaea, Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

And this was part of Jesus's answer to the apostles concerning the question they had just asked him. So how could any of the apostles expect Jesus to restore the kindgom until they had witnessed to the uttermost part of the earth?

Do you see now why I do not see this gospel of the kingdom as being different from the gospel Paul preached?

And Jesus had earlier told the apostles that the Gentiles would be part of this kingdom.

Matt 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Matt 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Either way you look at it, kingdom of God, or kingdom or heaven, Jesus had told of the Gentiles being part of it.

And I don't agree that the Jews had to be baptized to receive the Holy Ghost. Yes, Acts 2:38 can easily be read to say that. But what about those who received the Holy Ghost earlier in this very chapter?

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

There is no mention of baptism here. Yet they were all filled with the Holy Ghost.

In chapter 3 Peter tells the Jews to repent that their sins may be blotted out.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

There is no mention of baptism in this chapter.

In vs. 26 Peter again mentions forgiveness of sins, not the restoration of the kingdom.

Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

And I believe when Peter said "first" in Acts 3:26, he is showing that the gospel and salvation would also be offered to the Gentiles. I do agree that it was offered to the Jews first.

In chapter 5 Peter again speaks of forgiveness of sins, not the restoration of the kingdom.

Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

No mention of baptism, but Peter says the Holy Ghost was given to those who obeyed God. What was the common command given in Acts 2:38 and Acts 3:19? REPENT.

I have been reading the book of Acts over and over this week. I am no scholar like you and many others here. But I do read carefully, and I do consider who is being spoken to, and even the history. But I simply see things different from you, no disrespect whatsoever. Perhaps I am wrong and I will continue to study this matter.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by George

[FONT=Verdana]Aloha all,

I am starting a new Thread in regards to "rightly dividing" the Book of Acts because I believe the subject to be extremely import in understanding how to rightly divide the word of truth, and the Posts that were made in regards to this subject were "buried" in the Thread on "Water Baptism".

Brother George, I hope that cold has not gotten worse and that you are feeling better. You and me got a few passages to discuss. I'm not going to be accused of "creeping" in while a man is sick, so when you get well and are back into 4th gear physically, you and me need to discuss Acts 2:38 in it's context of Mark 16, Matthew 28, Leviticus 8, and it's tied to The Great Commission No One Wants To Talk About, John 20.

Grace and peace and get well.

Tony

[chette777]

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

Acts 2:38 in it's context of Mark 16, Matthew 28, Leviticus 8,

Just a little input

All these books fall under the dispensation of the Law for Israel and Acts is a transition to the Age of Grace. But Acts 2:38 is still a presentation to Israel so that the Kingdom can be established. Matthew is transitional from OT to NT of what some call the preparation for the Kingdom.

Have you read the book "One Book Rightly Divided"? I would not say that the dispenstional divisions that Staufer presents are not so cut and dry. Most tend to over lap. it is in the Sword Searcher.

[George]

Brother Winman said:

"I have been reading the book of Acts over and over this week. I am no scholar like you and many others here. But I do read carefully, and I do consider who is being spoken to, and even the history. But I simply see things different from you, no disrespect whatsoever. Perhaps I am wrong and I will continue to study this matter."

Aloha brother Winman,

I am pleased that you are studying the Book of Acts, but we may never come to an agreement on this issue. The reason that I say this is because of the difference in our approach to studying the Bible.

Now I mean no offense here, but if you go back over your statements concerning this issue, you tend to look for what the Scriptures "mean" (that is - what they "mean" to you); while I try to look to the Scriptures for what they "say" (because I can take them to "mean" anything I want them to "mean"). I want to know what God has to "say" about spiritual issues, I'm not interested in what He might "mean".

As Christians, there is a danger in "reading back into" the Scriptures our present understanding (i.e. the "Christian viewpoint") of a Biblical issue, when the events that were taking place and the people that were going through those events may not have been "connected" to us or the "church of God" in its present form.

For the record: I am not a "scholar". I have had no formal training in any "Christian" Bible School; College; or Seminary. From 1968 (when I first became a King James Bible believer) until today, what I have learned I have learned on my own, from reading numerous Christian authors and commentators, and many others (from 1968 - 1988 I probably read at least a book a week for all of those years); and for the last twenty years from reading and studying the Bible (without the commentators).

Instead of having my studies controlled and directed by teachers and professors, I have chosen my own course of studies and have controlled the direction those studies have taken me. At one time I had over 500 books in my Library, I am now down to about 50.

As I grow older I am less interested in what men have to say ABOUT God's Holy words, and more interested in WHAT God has to say about them. That is one of the reasons that I don't involve myself in many of the various "discussions" and "debates" that take place on the Forum.

This Forum has been very "instructive" for me, for it has demonstrated the chaotic state that the churches are in at this time. In the 50 years I have been a Christian I have observed the "deterioration" of so-called Christian "Fundamentalism" in America to the point where, by the testimony of many members of the Forum themselves, it is extremely difficult to find a genuine Bible believing church today.

It seems to me that the so-called "Evangelical" churches are embracing the "Emerging Church Movement" (ECM) and are swiftly sliding into apostasy; and on the other side of the aisle, many of the so-called "Fundamentalist" churches are embracing a form of "Christian Fascism", where the "pastor" has become a totalitarian dictator (every pastor = a "mini-pope").

There doesn't seem to be any "BALANCE". There doesn't seem to be any "MODERATION". In the early 1980's I despaired over these things and for a while I backslid because I didn't understand what was going on or the "tenor of our times" ("apostasy"). I believe we are living in the "latter times" or the "last days" [1 Timothy 4:1-16; 2 Timothy 3;1-17] and because we are, "the love of many shall wax cold"; and "some shall depart from the faith"; and "the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine".

The body of Christ is in the sorriest state I have ever seen it since I became a Christian. Chaos, anarchy, and rebellion rule the day and Christians are as "unstable", "untrustworthy", and "undependable" as their lost counterparts.

I believe that this Forum is a "microcosm" of what is taking place in "Christianity" as a whole. Look at the kooks, the crazies, and the crackpots who have come here in the last year and a half with some of their "hair-brained teachings"; look at the false teachers and hereticks who have tried to worm their way on to the Forum looking for disciples; look at the intellectual elites and Bible skeptics and correctors who constantly dog us with their insincere QUESTIONS - always QUESTIONS! Has the body of Christ ever been in such disarray?

The world (and the churches) are in exactly the same state of disarray as the nation of Israel was before the coming of the "king" - the problem is their first "king" was not the right "king", just like the "king" (anti-Christ) the world will choose will not be the right "king".

Judges 17:6 In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

Judges 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

Proverbs 21:2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.

We Christians have got to start seeing things through God's eyes and not our own.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Ezekiel 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

Ezekiel 18:29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

We have got to start understanding things according to God's words [Psalms 33;4; Matthew 4:4; Luke 4:4] and not the words of men.

Colossians 2:4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.
5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

We must beware of Satan and his "devices", and stick with the "simplicity that is in Christ".

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

We have got to seek out the Holy spirit for knowledge, for discernment, for understanding, and for wisdom, instead of relying on our own understanding.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by George

Instead of having my studies controlled and directed by teachers and professors, I have chosen my own course of studies and have controlled the direction those studies have taken me. At one time I had over 500 books in my Library, I am now down to about 50.

As I grow older I am less interested in what men have to say ABOUT God's Holy words, and more interested in WHAT God has to say about them. That is one of the reasons that I don't involve myself in many of the various "discussions" and "debates" that take place on the Forum.

This Forum has been very "instructive" for me, for it has demonstrated the chaotic state that the churches are in at this time. In the 50 years I have been a Christian I have observed the "deterioration" of so-called Christian "Fundamentalism" in America to the point where, by the testimony of many members of the Forum themselves, it is extremely difficult to find a genuine Bible believing church today.

It seems to me that the so-called "Evangelical" churches are embracing the "Emerging Church Movement" (ECM) and are swiftly sliding into apostasy; and on the other side of the aisle, many of the so-called "Fundamentalist" churches are embracing a form of "Christian Fascism", where the "pastor" has become a totalitarian dictator (every pastor = a "mini-pope").

There doesn't seem to be any "BALANCE". There doesn't seem to be any "MODERATION". In the early 1980's I despaired over these things and for a while I backslid because I didn't understand what was going on or the "tenor of our times" ("apostasy"). I believe we are living in the "latter times" or the "last days" [1 Timothy 4:1-16; 2 Timothy 3;1-17] and because we are, "the love of many shall wax cold"; and "some shall depart from the faith"; and "the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine".

The body of Christ is in the sorriest state I have ever seen it since I became a Christian. Chaos, anarchy, and rebellion rule the day and Christians are as "unstable", "untrustworthy", and "undependable" as their lost counterparts.

I believe that this Forum is a "microcosm" of what is taking place in "Christianity" as a whole. Look at the kooks, the crazies, and the crackpots who have come here in the last year and a half with some of their "hair-brained teachings"; look at the false teachers and hereticks who have tried to worm their way on to the Forum looking for disciples; look at the intellectual elites and Bible skeptics and correctors who constantly dog us with their insincere QUESTIONS - always QUESTIONS! Has the body of Christ ever been in such disarray?

Indeed!!!