[KingSolomon1611]

I'm a dispensationalist in the Ruckman/David Walker sense. I really enjoy Cornelius Stam's Acts commentaries, what little I have read of them. I'd like to study them further when I'm not beat down with school.

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

Brother, I don;t "reject" anything. I will fight for the canonicity of Hebrews and I Peter as fervently as I will defend I Timothy 3:16 in the KJV.

These two books are just not written to me, they are God's program for the future, just as Leviticus was for Times Past.

Hebrews through Revelation is tribulation doctrine. All Scripture is profitable for doctrine, such as the OT understanding of Christ's High Priesthood with relation to Israel and John the Baptist found in Hebrews that we will soon be discussing in the water baptism thread and the doctrines of Christ's ministry to Israel and Deity as found in the Four Gospels are examples, but my instructions are through Paul in Romans through Philemon. Peter, James, and John are NOT my apostles. What God is doing today is found in Paul's works and the contrasts can be better understood by getting out of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John and getting into Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians:

Galatians 2:1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man’s person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Ane example of the contrasts between Paul's ministry and the ministry of the Twelve under Peter is found in the blotting out of sins:

Israel's sins will not be blotted out until the beginning of the Millenium:

Ac 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Your and my sins are forgiven now:

Ro 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Tandy, 25 years ago I was a saved man who was afraid of the Bible, I didn't understand it. It took Pastor Richard Jordan 30 minutes to show me what God did yesterday, what He is doing today, what He will do in the future. In those 25, almost 26 years, I have not had one single doubt about the Bible.

I'm certainly not the apostle Paul, but I understand the man. If ever there was a good candidate for the anti-Christ outside of Judas Iscariot, it was Paul. 25 years ago I was dispensational teaching's worst enemy, as Paul was to Christianity. What changed my heart about dispensational teaching is that God is the Author of it, not Darby, Stam, nor Bullinger.

Grace and peace brother

Tony

Brother your entire dispensational teaching is based on a false doctrine that men in the Old Testament were saved by keeping the law. The whole house of cards falls apart by simply believing the word of God instead of men.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Paul said that men under the law and before were justified without works. It was by faith. That is not open for negotiation. You either believe it or you don't. A man can wave a King James Bible above his head and shout anything he wishes but if he contradicts clear doctrine he is still wrong.

The nonsense that Hebrews through Revelation teaches a works salvation is twisting the scriptures like a corkscrew. Paul's main ministry was to the Gentiles while Peter's ministry was to the Jews. Peter preached the same gospel as Paul.

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

IS HEBREWS A TRIBULATIONAL BOOK?

In Hebrews 2:3,4 we have a dispensational UNITY and CONTINUITY concerning the PLAN OF SALVATION, from the gospels to the book of Acts to the book of Hebrews. Moreover, in Hebrews we find ETERNAL SECURITY (7:25); a NEW COVENANT (10:9); the ONE SACRIFICE as opposed to animal sacrifices (10:8-12), JESUS, the Author and Finisher of OUR FAITH (12:2); Jesus, MEDIATOR of the NEW COVENANT (Heb 12:24); GRACE (13:9); the new covenant SACRIFICE OF PRAISE (13:15).

Do you think Paul really expected to be with the Tribulational saints shortly or do you really believe that Paul asked the TRIBULATION SAINTS TO PRAY for him (13:18,23)?

IS A JAMES A TRIBULATIONAL BOOK?

The 12 tribes scattered abroad, to whom this Epistle was written, were BEGOTTEN with the WORD (James 1:18); were BELOVED BRETHREN who were the FIRSTFRUITS OF HIS CREATURES (1:18,19); were told that the WORD SAVES THE SOUL – not works (1:21); were shown the FUTILITY of KEEPING the LAW for SALVATION (2:10); were able to cause the DEVIL TO FLEE (4:7 – let the Tribulation saints try this one); were benefactors of GRACE (4:6). Paul IMPLIED works (Acts 26:19,20).

IS 1 PETER A TRIBULATIONAL BOOK?

Note the greeting of GRACE and multiplied peace (1:2) to these scattered strangers. Notice also that these scattered strangers were BEGOTTEN by the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1:3) and redeemed by only the precious BLOOD OF CHRIST (1:18,19); and BORN AGAIN (1:23); trusting in the events of the CROSS (2:24); and standing in the TRUE GRACE of God (5:12). They were capable of suffering as CHRISTIANS (4:16); and were in Christ Jesus (5:14) and were ETERNALLY SECURE in anticipation of the last time (1:5); (Cf 1:9,20; 2:9,11; 4:3). Certainly this book will provide comfort to Israel in the Tribulation.

IS 2 PETER A TRIBULATIONAL BOOK?

This book is addressed to those who have Peter's like precious faith (1:1). Notice the GRACE, even MULTIPLIED GRACE of 1:2 and these saints were partakers of the DIVINE NATURE (1:4). Note that Peter connects the SALVATION of his Epistles with that of PAUL'S epistles (3:15).

IS 1 JOHN A TRIBULATIONAL BOOK?

The BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST CLEANSETH from all SIN (1:7); simple CONFESSION of sin is sufficient for FORGIVENESS (1:9); John taught the NEW BIRTH (1 John 3:14). John encouraged his readers to look forward to the RAPTURE and RESURRECTION (3:1-3). Christ is the Saviour of the WORLD (4:14). SIMPLY CONFESSING the SON OF GOD was sufficient for right relationship to God and BELIEVING that Jesus is the Christ, brought about the NEW BIRTH (4:15; 5:1). ETERNAL LIFE was received only through the SON (5:10-13).

IS 2 JOHN A TRIBULATIONAL BOOK?

John FOUND (past tense) the elect lady's children walking in the truth (v.4). He was speaking about folk that existed THEN rather than future tribulation saints that DID NOT yet exist.

Do you think such a tribulation could have a sister in John's time, that could send her a greeting by John (v.13). Note the doctrine CHRIST and GRACE (V. 3,9).

IS 3 JOHN A TRIBULATIONAL BOOK?

John speaks of the BRETHERN and the children of Gaius in the PAST TENSE (v.3,4). Could they be tribulation saints? How could John expect to deal with Diotrephes when he came, if Diotrephes was a tribulation saint (v.9,10) How could John expect to see Gaius SHORTLY and how could Gaius greet, mutual friends BY NAME, for John - if they were tribulation saints(v.1,14)?

IS JUDE A TRIBULATIONAL BOOK?

Jude preached PRESEVERATION in JESUS CHRIST; ETERNAL SECURITY (Jude 1,24); MULTIPLIED MERCY (v.2); and the common SALVATION (v.3).

[swordsman]

I basically agree with tonybones2112. With his earlier post on what has been written to and for us.

Salvation has always been by grace through faith but by faith in what is the key question.

Salvation has always been based by grace and faith in what God has said. What He said to the tribe of Israel in the wilderness is not what He says to me today.

Same with the Gospels and the tribulational books.

That is why you see so many bending and twisting like a pretzel to explain Hebrews 6 and eternal security

I do not understand what is so confusing about this, the confusion and the need for a formal Bible education comes from applying what was written to one group and applying it to another.

[Biblestudent]

Hebrews to Jude looks like "general" epistles, and they have "church words" in them.

A little more closer look, and one will find that:

The letter to the HEBREWS teaches holding on to the end to be saved.
JAMES writes to the twelve tribes and requires works added to faith for justification.
PETER writes to the Jewish strangers scattered in Gentile countries about grace, faith, and salvation that are yet to be revealed and brought at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
JOHN's epistles are more general, but he also writes salvation being conditioned upon walking in the light and loving the brethren.
JUDE talks about the "common salvation" spoken by the Lord before the cross, which is quite different from "your salvation" according to Paul's gospel, which is a mystery not revealed before.

Words like "faith", "grace", "salvation", "elect", "church", "coming", "last days", "justified", "sanctified", etc. etc. -- they all look the same, sound the same, spell the same -- but it is a fact in the English language and in Bible interpretation that they do not always mean the same.

A simple example: "house" Does it always mean "building"?

As I've said all scripture is profitable, rightly divided. I preach and teach through the Bible every year. I receive a lot of spiritual blessings even from Leviticus 11.

Refusal to "rightly divide" results in improper mixing. "Halo-halo" is a nice summer treat, but poor hermeneutics.

[chette777]

I at this time place Hebrews - Jude as transitional from church age to Tribulational. seeing that it has doctrines for both church and Israel in Tribulation.

[Brother Jerry]

I'm a Christian.

Without any preservatives or artificial flavors.

If I'm going to Glory in anything, I will Glory in that I am a Christian and that I know my God and Saviour Jesus Christ.

All things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made.

Amen!

[Fredoheaven]

Originally Posted by Brother Jerry

I'm a Christian.

Without any preservatives or artificial flavors.

If I'm going to Glory in anything, I will Glory in that I am a Christian and that I know my God and Saviour Jesus Christ.

All things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made.

Amen!

Bro Jerry, you are quite right. I am a Christian and I am a Believer, but not only that I am a Baptist too.

Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by chette777

I at this time place Hebrews - Jude as transitional from church age to Tribulational. seeing that it has doctrines for both church and Israel in Tribulation.

Brother, we are in agreement that yes, they are Tribulation doctrine, and clearly Peter and James writes to the Tribulation church in general while John writes specifically to the 144,000 in my view, but I see nothing transitional as the Rapture of the Church is not transitional but instantaneous. It's my view further that not only will the Rapture preceed the Tribulation, but that the Rapture of the church will cause and initiate the Tribulation.

Grace and peace Chette

Tony

[Greektim]

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

Brother, we are in agreement that yes, they are Tribulation doctrine, and clearly Peter and James writes to the Tribulation church in general while John writes specifically to the 144,000 in my view, but I see nothing transitional as the Rapture of the Church is not transitional but instantaneous. It's my view further that not only will the Rapture preceed the Tribulation, but that the Rapture of the church will cause and initiate the Tribulation.

Grace and peace Chette

Tony

When you say the Rapture will "initiate the Tribulation" do you mean that it will begin the Trib? Like, trumpet blast and shout and translation of saints and boom the countdown of 7 years begins? Do you have a passage in mind that supports that? I often hear people say that but mostly b/c they suppose it to be true b/c the Rapture is Pre-Trib.

Also, when you say the "Tribulation church" are you referring to saints in the Trib? Or are you referring to another "church"? Or even an extension of the Raptured Church?

Just want to nail down you views before I start disputing some of your claims.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by swordsman

I basically agree with tonybones2112. With his earlier post on what has been written to and for us.

Salvation has always been by grace through faith but by faith in what is the key question.

Salvation has always been based by grace and faith in what God has said. What He said to the tribe of Israel in the wilderness is not what He says to me today.

Same with the Gospels and the tribulational books.

That is why you see so many bending and twisting like a pretzel to explain Hebrews 6 and eternal security

I do not understand what is so confusing about this, the confusion and the need for a formal Bible education comes from applying what was written to one group and applying it to another.

It makes for a lot of contetion, but we just need to remember our fellow soldiers may not be as dispensational as us, so let eveything be done to edification.

Grace and peace

Tony