[George]

Originally Posted by Samuel

"Has anyone pulled this one on you yet, it seems to say that Abraham knew about Christ. And if Abraham knew, the rest of the prophets would have known also."

John:8:56: Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Aloha brother Samuel,

I have had someone pull that on me on another Forum last year. My answer then (as it is now) - the "DAY" that the Lord Jesus Christ was speaking of was NOT the "day" of His crucifixion, it is "THE 'DAY' OF THE LORD". When Jesus Christ (As KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS) returns to this earth to rule and reign forever.

There are so many Christians (especially nowadays) who think - "it's all about ME! Or it's all about US Christians! I've got "news" for them - IT'S ALL ABOUT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST & HIS KINGDOM!

Why would Abraham be "glad" and "rejoice" over the Crucifixion of the LORD OF GLORY?

Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Acts 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

You see the problem is in assuming or privately interpreting that the "day" Abraham was speaking about was the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, but that wasn't just one "day" - it was three days & three nights! [Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.]

The death, burial, and resurrection is never called or referred to as a single "day". However, the return of the Lord Jesus Christ to rule and to reign in the Millennium is referred to (over and over) as "The Day of The Lord": {Isa 2:12; 13:6,9; 34:8; Jer 46:10; La 2:22; Eze 13:5; 30:3; Joe 1:15; 2:1,11,31; 3:14; Am 5:18,20; Ob 1:15; Zep 1:7-8,14,18; 2:2-3; Zec 14:1; Mal 4:5; Ac 2:20; 1Co 5:5; 2Co 1:14; 1Th 5:2; 2Pe 3:10}; or "the great day of the Lord", or "the great day", or "the great day of His wrath", or "that great day of God Almighty": {Zep 1:14; Jude 1:6; Re 6:17; 16:14}; or "The Lord's Day": {Re 1:10}; or "my day": {John 8:56}.

Instead of speculation, conjecture, supposition, or assumption - It's amazing what a study of Scripture (with Scripture) will reveal!

Oh, by the way, I was "BANNED" from that other Forum for presenting this, and other Scriptures demonstrating that there was no way that any Old Testament saint ever knew or understood the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ - How could they have? His own disciples "didn't get it" until after the Lord was killed, buried, and arose from the dead. As a matter of fact - they still "didn't get it" until He "revealed" the truth to them and opened up their "understanding"!

[Diligent]

Bro. Chette has pointed out that the notion that OT saints "looked forward" to the cross is strained at best. What about the disciples "looking back" at it?

Luke 24:3-11 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. ... He is not here, but is risen: ... And they remembered his words, And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. ... And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.

They were so ignorant of Christ's work, that even after he had completed it, they didn't believe it.

What do we call someone who regards the "tale" of Christ's resurrection as "idle?" Lost!

It seems strange to me to say that Saints pre-Christ were saved by the same Gospel as we.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Diligent

Bro. Chette has pointed out that the notion that OT saints "looked forward" to the cross is strained at best. What about the disciples "looking back" at it?

Luke 24:3-11 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. ... He is not here, but is risen: ... And they remembered his words, And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. ... And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.

They were so ignorant of Christ's work, that even after he had completed it, they didn't believe it.

What do we call someone who regards the "tale" of Christ's resurrection as "idle?" Lost!

It seems strange to me to say that Saints pre-Christ were saved by the same Gospel as we.

I am amazed that He has given me, and all true believers, the written word and spiritual understanding to go with it.

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

I do not know exactly what the prophets of old understood. But this I do know, God has opened our eyes of spiritual understanding. Therefore, I am able to read those Old Testament prophecies with a new mind and perspective. I see Jesus in them. How very blessed we are to be living in this dispensation.

1 Corinthians 2:7-11 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

[stephanos]

I think many prophets knew about the Gospel of the Kingdom (Moshiach), but I don't believe anyone in the OT looked forward to the cross. I think many of them were expecting a King, but I don't think they understood that the King would have to play Priest first.

Here are a couple other verses which indicate they knew of a coming Savior.

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. (Luke 24:44 KJV)

For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. (John 5:46 KJV)

Peace and Love,
Stephen

[MC1171611]

People knew of and were looking for a political king, one who would restore the nation of Israel to power over all nations. However, they didn't understand the importance of the spiritual side of things, as the Jews have always been a visually motivated group of people. They had no concept that they needed to have God's image restored in them or that Christ would institute a Spiritual Kingdom (Kingdom of God) in addition to the literal, physical, earthly Kingdom (Kingdom of Heaven).

They were looking for a powerful King, not a suffering Saviour like Jesus.

[chette777]

Diligent made a very good point about saints today looking back to the cross. I looked to the cross of Jesus Chrsit but not back to it. this looking back doctrine will fit very well witht he Calvinist. looking back could imply they were already saved before they believed.

as we do know Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. this is what made OT under the Law sacrifices effective for them. but those sacrifices had to be done every year as comanded in faith to receive God grace.

this I can see in all but the Garden of Eden (pre fall) and Kingdom dispensations. Salvation has always had three elements that were working together Grace, Faith, and Works. but how those three worked together was different in every dispensation. but still no one in the OT Law dispensation or from the fall on was looking to the cross of Chrsit to come to finish or perfect or bring them salvation.

[Winman]

What about these verses?

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by Winman

What about these verses?

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Good find winman. I remember being overwhelmed when I came across that verse the other day. And to think, a gentile was saying that!

Peace and Love,
Stephen

[chette777]

Nice try again. and yes it does have a redeemer but for Job He knew his redeemer was God. Not "his SON on the Cross dying for sins". and the He shall stand upon the earth is about the eternal kingdom when God will be among men on earth as found in Rev 22.

It is an awesome verse. but it does not clearly teach they knew that God would send his son to die on a cross for sins. Remember these false teachers are saying "the OT saints under law (so that is Israel not Gentiles) knew clearly by the revelation given them that God would send His Son to die on a cross for their sins." I have heard many well known Pastors from denominational and Non-denominational churches say these exact word or some very similar to them. but they never quote a verse in support.

it would seem they are Parroting something they have been taught and wish was true.

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by chette777

Nice try again. and yes it does have a redeemer but for Job He knew his redeemer was God. Not "his SON on the Cross dying for sins". and the He shall stand upon the earth is about the eternal kingdom when God will be among men on earth as found in Rev 22.

It is an awesome verse. but it does not clearly teach they knew that God would send his son to die on a cross for sins. Remember these false teachers are saying "the OT saints under law (so that is Israel not Gentiles) knew clearly by the revelation given them that God would send His Son to die on a cross for their sins." I have heard many well known Pastors from denominational and Non-denominational churches say these exact word or some very similar to them. but they never quote a verse in support.

it would seem they are Parroting something they have been taught and wish was true.

Right, well a lot of people (especially preachers) are guilty of preaching things which they heard, but haven't looked into for themselves.

I personally believe that many prophets in the OT knew that God would do a work which would redeem them from their sins. But I don't think they understood how it would be done. I think nearly everything that we read in the NT (doctrinally) was shadowed in the OT. Naturally, we can see this now because of the Holy Ghost which directs our attention to Christ Jesus, who is indeed spoken of in the OT. But to an OT saint reading Scriptures it was a mystery to be fully revealed to the apostle Paul.

But one thing I wonder about is David. Could it be that this OT saint knew?

For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. (Acts 2:25-32 KJV)

Could he have known that Christ would come and that his son Solomon was a shadow of our Lord?

And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father. (1 Chronicles 28:6 KJV)

It's hard to say. It's evident throughout Scripture that the OT saints were blinded to this mystery. Nevertheless, it's hard not to wonder if these men ever had any sort of inkling that a sinless man would come to shed His blood to redeem people from their sins.

Peace and Love,
Stephen