[pbiwolski]

Is that what you read above? No wonder you're so confused.
Do you know anything about Paul that will "vanish away" or "be done away?" Oh, say, when something perfect shows up?
The passage clearly (yes, clearly) speaks of the return of Christ when Paul will see his Lord "face to face." "That which is perfect" has then the dual application (see scripture referenced above) to not only the Lord Jesus Christ, but also to what Paul will benefit from His appearing (v10,12).

[Biblestudent]

The context of 1 Corinthians 12-14 is about spiritual gifts that includes healing, tongues, miracles, etc.
Paul refers to them as "in part" and "childish" and that he said they will "cease", "fail", and "vanish".
That which is perfect is the complete revelation of the Word of God. Remember, that Paul was the last apostle chosen by Christ (1 Cor.15 "last of all, he was seen of me also as of one born out of due time), and he was selected from heaven and not during Christ's earthly ministry. He said that he was a minister to "fulfil" the Word of God (Col. 1).
He told pastor Timothy that "all Scripture" is "given", and is PROFITABLE to make the MAN of God PERFECT. There is no need for extra-Biblical revelations.
Furthermore, we know John wrote the last book, but it is only the revelation of the OT prophecies, revelation of Jesus Christ - we know "revelation" is not rapture, it is second coming on earth when He sets up His kingdom.
Simply stated, John simply built what was already revealed "since the world began".
Paul was the one who "fulfilled" the Word of God, for to him was given that which was lacking - to him was revealed the mystery which was HIDDEN "since the world began" (Rom. 16).

[Biblestudent]

By the way, I believe in:
1. Speaking in tongues when you talk in different languages to preach the completed Word of God.
2. Prophesying when it means "forth telling" the completed Word of God.
3. Healing as an answer to prayer according to the completed Word of God.
But:
1. There is no GIFT OF TONGUES today for we already have the completed Word of God.
2. There is no extra-biblical PROPHECIES needed today for we have the completed Word of God.
3. There is no GIFT OF HEALING of "ALL KINDS OF SICKNESS AND ALL KINDS OF DISEASES" as was done in Matthew 4 when there was not yet the completed Word of God, for the complete revelation tell us in 2 Corinthians 12 that God's GRACE IS SUFFICIENT (gift of healing is not) and that God is able to do above what we ask or think (Eph), and not just merely give what we ask (Mat 7).
According to the completed Word of God, in this age of grace, God may or may not answer our prayer for physical healing for God's grace of salvation is sufficient, whereas under the kingdom program they receive instantaneous answer to there specific prayers for physical healing, but they have to endure and hold on to the end to be saved.
Which one is better?
Physical healing, no eternal security?
or
Eternal security even without physical healing?
I'm complete in Christ. I don't speak in tongues-no gift of healing-no extra-biblical prophesying-no poison drinking - no handling snakes, but I'm saved by the grace of God and nothing shall be able to separate me from the love of Christ. Amen!

[George]

Aloha brother Sammy,

Re: Your post of 3/4/08 - "Know in part"

I have enjoyed all of your posts and have agreed with you on almost every point that you have brought up. However, I ask you to prayerfully consider this post as possibly being true.

The "Standard Interpretation" for 1 Corinthians 13:9-11 is - "But when that which is perfect is come" is the "Canon" of the Scriptures.

I can remember way back in 1973 being presented with this "thorny problem" and I examined the verses in the context (Including Chapters 12 & 14) and could not come up with the "standard interpretation" without a whole lot of "speculation" on my part. Bible believing Christians must be extremely careful of "speculation" when it comes to understanding the Holy Scriptures (especially when it comes to teaching sound doctrine). 2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

In 1 Corinthians 13:1-8 - in the context Paul is speaking about "charity" (specifically - the love between Christian brethren) and the fact that true Christian Charity "rejoiceth in the truth". and then he mentions that prophecies - they shall "fail" (stop); and tongues - they shall "cease"; and knowledge - shall vanish away; and then Paul "camps out" for a while on knowledge:
1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. {NOTICE: "through" a glass NOT "into" a glass!}
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Back in '73 When I read the preceeding verses - I asked myself - where is the word "Scriptures"? (the only place where the word is found in the entire Book of 1 Corinthians is in Chapter 15: 3-4); Where is the word "Canon"? (Of course no such word exists in the Holy Bible); Where is the word - "words" or "word" mentioned? The words are not to be found in the entire 13th. Chapter!

I then asked myself what is going on? How can we build a doctrine around the "word" or "words" of God or the "Scriptures" if they (the words) are not mentioned in the context? And what I discovered is that the brethren, in their desire to get rid of tongues and the "sign gifts", decided that all of the "gifts" had to go.

I have no problem saying the "sign gifts" have ceased until God resumes His work with the nation of Israel - Since "the Jews require a sign", then the "sign gifts of: healing"; the working of miracles; divers kinds of tongues; the interpretation of tongues; i.e. the "gifts" of signs, wonders, and miracles have ceased (since we Christians don't walk by sight, but by faith - we aren't Jews).

However, how are the "gifts" of: the word of wisdom; the word of knowledge; of faith; of prophecy (NOT prophesying); discerning of spirits considered "signs" or "wonders" or "miracles"? If I understand English words, these words have nothing "miraculous" about them that people can "see". Have all spiritual "gifts" ceased? I think not - haven't you ever met a brother who seemed to be especially "gifted" in one of these areas? I have met several.

1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

Are all of the preceeding verses obsolete and out of date? Has all of the above ceased? Is there no one within each individual church that has any "gifts" except the man called "pastor" or "elder" or "teacher" - and because he went to school? The church of God is a "Living Organism" and God provides the body with "every man to profit withal".

I believe that one of the many failings of the modern day churches is the failure on the part of the body to recognize men within each church, that God has blessed with a "gift", but because they have not matriculated and graduated from "Bible school", are neither recognized or appreciated as being able to "profit withal". (By this modern-day criteria all of the original 12 Disciples/Apostles would not be eligible to serve - and niether would our Lord and Savior!)

The words or phrase "face to face" is the KEY to understanding this verse. There are 11 verses in the entire Bible where the phrase "face to face" shows up - Guess what the other 10 verses say in regards to the meaning? All the other verses where "face to face" is used in the Bible it means - FACE TO FACE! That is, every other place in the scriptures its a face to face meeting between God and some servant of His or a face to face meeting between 2 men.

We are commanded to study the word of God: 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (The only place in the Bible that commands us to study.)

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Isaiah 28:10 & Isaiah 28:13 are the only verses in the Bible that tell us HOW to study the Scriptures. Do you think for a moment that God is going to go against the only instructions He has given us in the entire Bible on how to rightly divide His Holy word?

"Face to face" settles the matter for a Bible believer. With the correct understanding of the words "face to face", you should be able to discern what these verses say - not what they mean - on your own, without the aid of any Bible "scholar".

I hope that you will prayerfully consider this post and should you still disagree you won't be alone. I have a couple of dear Christian brothers who disagree with me and it hasn't affected our fellowship of love for one another.

George

[pbiwolski]

Originally Posted by George

"Face to face" settles the matter for a Bible believer.

Well put, George, well put.

What is the glass as used in other places in the NT?

Face to face - in James 1, we see ourselves, see our face reflected back to us. In 2 Corinthians 3:18, we see Christ reflected in all of Scripture. In this passage, we see the OT opened up to our understanding, and see Jesus face to face in the Scriptures - rather than having the OT veiled to us, now we see Him face to face.

Please see my response on page 1 of this thread for a look at the words used in this passage - of which I have not seen anyone address (except for this phrase here).

[pbiwolski]

Originally Posted by jerry

In 2 Corinthians 3:18, we see Christ reflected in all of Scripture. In this passage, we see the OT opened up to our understanding, and see Jesus face to face in the Scriptures - rather than having the OT veiled to us, now we see Him face to face.

C'mon Jerry, you can't have it both ways.

I Cor. 13 - "For now we see through a glass darkly...now I know in part..."
II Cor. 3 - You suggest Paul tells the church at Corinth that they can see Him. What happened to seeing through a glass darkly?

[pbiwolski]

Furthermore,

"now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

Was Paul alive when the canon was completed? No, he wasn't waiting for a "perfect/complete Bible" to come along. He was, however, waiting for the return of Christ!

He was referring to that which is perfect (complete). With the New Testament, we are no longer looking through a glass darkly when it comes to reading and studying out the Old Testament. However, when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians (one of the earliest NT books written) the OT was not opened up completely yet. Now we have Hebrews and other NT passages to open up the OT types and shadows - therefore we are seeing Jesus face to face in the Scriptures.

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by jerry

therefore we are seeing Jesus face to face in the Scriptures.

This is the part that "gets me." There are 11 verses in the Bible with the phrase "face to face." If this interpretation is correct, this is the only time the phrase is allegorical and not literal. Saying we see the Lord "face to face" today strikes me as the same kind of "spiritualization" that the reformed folks engage in when they deny the literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth.

I certainly don't believe that sign gifts are in use today, but this verse doesn't present a strong argument to me for that. Furthermore, aren't the sign gifts going to be in use again before the 1000 year reign?