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#11
10-13-2008, 04:39 PM
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And of course you may want to ask an "originals only" proponent the following:
If someone came up to you and said "Here are the originals", how would you know, how would you "prove"(a favorite word of bible correctors) they were "the originals?" Perhaps you will notice a "meltdown." (And perhaps ask them to "prove" there was an infallible "original manuscript.") In and with Christ, In the Lord, John M. Whalen |
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#12
10-13-2008, 05:45 PM
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That was an excellent, excellent exposition, Atlas. I truly could not have done it so well.
Luke, "Born Crucified" is the name of a very good book by a man named L. E. Maxwell. It's on Ruckman's "Recommended Reading" list; it deals with the Christian life. This business of Strong's Concordance needs to be addressed further, although I don't have time right now. Far too many Christians depend on Strong's own translation of a Hebrew or Greek word, which they look up in his Inedx. They treat Strong's Index as though it were the 67th book of the Bible. The problem is that he doesn't always choose the correct definition, when there are several possibilities; and that Strong himself was not an evangelical or fundamentalist by any stretch of the imagination. Young's is much better; instead of an "Index," he arranges the verses, in the concordance itself, showing how a word is used in one place, and how it's used in another place. But it's not "exhaustive" as Strong's claims to be, because he doesn't list all the pronouns (he, she, it) or articles (the, a, an). And he's a very humble, very fundamental man, as is indicated in his introduction. I came to Young's late in life, but now it's the only one I use. Of course, no concordance is to be used in order to correct the words of God, which have been faithfully preserved in the Authorized Version. Christians are very, very bad about wanting "shortcuts" in Bible study. But "Bible study made easy" isn't a valid concept. Is prayer easy? Not real, heavy-duty prayer, no. Is witnessing? Not always, no. So where do we get the idea that Bible study should be "easy?" We're spoiled. That's why God said study to show thyself approved - - - and why the word "study" has been changed in all the new Bibles. Ahhhh, don't get me started on this stuff..... 
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#14
10-13-2008, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
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#15
10-13-2008, 11:59 PM
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oh my that is hilarious. I amsure Luke didn't even think about it. but that is good. we all need a LOLBBROTF! (laughoutloudbellybustinonthefloor)
no offence Vendetta but that was funny |
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#16
10-14-2008, 05:37 AM
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John,
Quote:
I would tell thew you do not have all of the originals. I would tell them that the original book of Jeremiah was burned in the fire and no one ever could have an original of the book of Jeremiah. Even if you had the original copy of all of the other 65 books. It would therefore be impossible to have all of the " originals. " The post I made at the start of this topic has gotten me banned for about 5 different forums. I know how big melt down is.  Atlas |
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#18
10-14-2008, 08:14 AM
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Chette,
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I was told, that if I posted anything about or by that " heretic Ruckman again I would be banned at once. " My reply was, well might as well ban me now. So he banned me. Baptist Zone is supposed to be a KJVO forum. Go over there and make a Ruckman post and you'll see what will happen to you. Atlas |
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#19
10-14-2008, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Atlas, Perhaps this will edify: Division, Peace, and Compromise By John M. Whalen (bold is my emphasis) I may at times seem quite "abrasive" , or, to employ the vernacular of today's so-called "modern, enlightened, pluralistic, enlightened" society, quite "mean- spirited", "intolerant", "closed minded", "an extremist", "a fanatic", "a trouble maker", "un Christlike", "un Christian"; yes, divisive. Most also know that I am a King James Only bible believer, not a corrector. There are numerous biblical principles I have learned and embraced, and on which there can be no compromise, from studying this great(an understatement!) book, a book we refer to as "the Holy Bible"(singular). One of these abiding, guiding principles is this: the Holy Bible is to correct us-we are not to correct it(2 Timothy 3:16). If the Holy Bible's testimony is to be believed, and it is, and not corrected, the LORD God has told us, in no uncertain terms, that he has "magnified" "...the name of the Lord Jesus...."(Acts 19:17). This same Holy Bible also testifies that the LORD God has "....magnified thy word above all thy name..."(Psalms 138:2), and has "... glorified the word of the Lord"(Acts 13:48, 2 Thessalonians 3:1) The Holy Bible also testifies that this same LORD God promised to preserve his inspired word without error. I believe, I "take God at his word", the biblical definition of faith, I am convinced/persuaded that he has been faithful to this promise! . The promise to preserve his inspired word without error, for English speaking people, is realized in the King James Bible-the Holy Bible. I provide no apologies for this stance. Although the following "fundamentals of the Christian faith" may not seem germane to the topic debated on this sight, they serve as a the standard for distinguishing between the truth of Christianity and all other "religions", for discerning between "good" and "evil, between "light" and "darkness", between "sweet" and bitter"(Isaiah 5:20): the Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ ,the Virgin Birth, the Blood Atonement (this refers to a belief in salvation by grace alone, through faith in the Blood of Christ alone), the Bodily Resurrection , and the inerrantcy of the scriptures themselves (Psalms 12:6-7; Ro. 15:4; 2 Tim. 3:16-17; 2 Pet. 1:20......), the preservation of the scriptures, and that the scriptures are the exclusive, final authority in matters of doctrine. I admit I am a Bible believer. I accept the Holy Bible as the final authority as the source of truth. Truth, by definition, has no error. I do not prefer it(I "prefer" ice creme,and I "prefer" not getting out of bed early every weekday morning and going to work.............). I submit to it, I do not correct it, nor do I "limit it"(one of the standard cliches/"arguments" used by bible correctors)- it limits me. No one "believes" any "the Bible" he or she "prefers", for to "prefer" any "the Bible" presupposes an authority over it. The only "faith in the Bible" results from a believer submitting to the authority of the standard Bible, which is ultimately responsible for his or her faith. On the preceding, there can be no compromise. Unity among those who call themselves Christians cannot be at the expense of the truth. Truth: an exact and faithful expression of the facts; the standard by which to judge all else; final authority. As I stated in my previous post(a biblical principle-you learn through repetition) The LORD God is the source of the truth: God the Father is the truth(Psalms 31:5); The Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ is the truth(Jn. 14:6); God the Holy Ghost is the truth(Jn. 14:7). Only an absolute authority can provide absolute truth; all other truth is relative and changeable(Psalms 119:128). The Holy Bible is the source of the truth, if words are to have any meaning. Again, I "take God at His word": He inspired the Holy Bible, He preserved it, and it is without error, in 5th grade English- Scripture repeatedly declares that it is the source of truth, as it is written: "... Thy word is true from the beginning:..."(Psalms 119:160 "...thy word is truth...." John 17:17 "...the scripture of truth...." Daniel 10:21 "...if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20 scriptures. The "in thing" that is sweeping this country has invaded Christianity: compromise at the expense of sound doctrine in the desire to achieve "peace between men". Within secular society, within the ranks of those who reject the Holy Bible and the Lord Jesus Christ as the standard of truth, it is crystallized by the mind set of "Can't we all get along"(Rodney King"), i.e., "religious pluralism/subjectivism"-"All roads lead to Rome, so let's all get along(peace) by putting aside our differences the cause division....you are so intolerant..........." Within Christianity, it is crystallized by the "ecumenical movement", i.e., "Wouldn't we help people more if we simply remained silent and operated out of peace and love, instead of divisive doctrine?" However, in whichever camp is your allegiance, the mind set is the same: doctrine is sacrificed on the altar of "unity": "...truth is fallen in the street...."(Isaiah 59:14), and is "...cast....to the ground"(Daniel 8:12), all in the never ending chase for "peace" in this fallen, cursed, and corrupt world(Genesis 3:17; Romans 8:21; 1 Corinthians 15:42, 50; 2 Peter 1:4). And yet, ignoring the importance the LORD God places on sound doctrine, ignoring the absolute priority of sound doctrine, is ignoring the LORD God's framework, his order for "peace". Given that the "Christmas" season is approaching, perhaps the following would be instructive regarding mankind's never ending pursuit of "peace". Notice Isaiah 9:7(and Luke 1:31-33): " Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this." The LORD God has promised that peace, from a divine perspective, will ultimately reign on earth. And this will be instituted, by force, only when "The Prince of Peace"(Isaiah 9:6), the Lord Jesus Christ, comes back to order/establish it. But notice that worldwide peace, "...as the days of heaven upon the earth...."(Deut. 11:21), is established by judgment, not compromise. That is, the entire world will know the truth after they are judged by the standard of truth, the LORD God himself, through the Holy Bible(the Holy Bible is the direct revelation of God as it's source. As such, it has divine authority, for what the Bible says, GOD SAYS). Only after truth is instituted will worldwide "peace" be established and realized. But the LORD God never sacrifices truth for peace, sound doctrine for compromise. I am a dispensationalist(which is a good biblical word). I also make no apologies for this. That is, I adhere to the biblical command, not suggestion, to "...rightly divide the word of truth...."(2 Tim. 2:15), distinguishing in the divisions in the Bible, the most important being the 2 following main divisions: The prophetic program- which is God's purpose to establish a literal, physical, earthly, Davidic, Messianic kingdom("...as the days of heaven upon the earth."-Deuteronomy 11:21), with Jesus Christ as the king of kings, ruling over the twelve apostles, who will rule over the twelve tribes of Israel, who will rule over the nations of this earth, from The mystery program- which is God's purpose to form a spiritual body of believers called "the Body of Christ", with Christ as the Head. This body will be perfectly "conformed to the image of His Son" and will rule and reign with Christ in the heavenly places("..made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.."-Eph. 2:6) This program was revealed to the apostle Paul by the risen, ascended, glorified Lord Jesus Christ from heaven via progressive revelation All of us divide the Holy Bible to some degree. For example, most believers recognize the division between "The Old Testament" and "The New Testament", and recognize that they do not accept all the commands of the Holy Bible as doctrinally directed towards themselves. That is, although all of the Holy Bible is written "....for our learning...."(Romans 15:4), not all of the Holy Bible is written for our obedience. Those that contend that "every command, promise, of the Holy Bible is mine", using such "catchy, programmed", and yet hypocritical statements such as "My Bible says", are either woefully ignorant, or intentionally dishonest. And the word "ignorant" does not mean "stupid", from a biblical perspective. The word simply means "lacking knowledge". This word is also a good biblical word. The apostle Paul uses it over and over again. And now I am finally "zeroing in" on the intent of this particular article(finally!) However, having said this, I admit that John Whalen does not have the "corner on all truth"(I know someone is thinking, "Boy, does he have that right"!). Only this great LORD God of ours possesses absolute knowledge. And as such, I will, and can, have fellowship with, and welcome, anyone that affirms the fundamentals previously cited within this post. This also is a biblical command of our LORD God. However, those who disagree with any of the above doctrines are not Christians-it is that simple. Rather, they are the true heretics. The LORD God in His word repeatedly commands to distinguish between that which is true and that which is false, i.e., "All mushrooms are not good-some will kill you"-the importance of doctrine. As such, I will adhere to the biblical command of separation(2 Cor. 6:16, 1 Timothy 6:5), I will "mark" and "avoid"(Romans 16:17) those that promote false doctrine, and I will sternly reprove, rebuke, and correct(2 Tim. 3:16, 4:2) that which is not "...sound doctrine...."(1 Tim. 1:10, 2 Tim. 4:3-see also Romans 6:17,16:17; Ephesians 4:14; 1 Tim. 1:3,4:6, 4:13, 5:17, 6:1; 2 Tim. 3:10, 3:16,4:2; Titus 1:9, 2:7, 2:10). And now I am finally "zero-ing" in on the 2 key points/"intents" of this particular article(finally!), and how it relates to the "what is the Bible" issue: 1.Those "in Christ" can, and inevitably will disagree, as long as we are in these bodies of "the flesh", over such issues as "tongues/no tongues", "healing today/no healing today", "believer's baptism as a testimony/no believer's testimony as a testimony".........., dispensational/"covenantal"......but we cannot, we must not compromise on the 5 fundamentals outlined previously, including, most importantly, the sound doctrine that the Holy Bible, if is to be believed and submitted to, is without error. One writer so eloquently expressed this mind set regarding compromise: "To employ soft words and honeyed phrases in discussing questions of everlasting importance; to deal with errors that strike at the foundations of all human hope as if they were harmless and venial mistakes; to bless where God disapproves, and to make apologies where He calls us to stand up like men and assert, though it may be the aptest method of securing popular applause in a sophisticated age, is cruelty to man and treachery to heaven. Those who on such subjects attach more importance to the rules of courtesy than they do the measure of truth, do not defend the citadel, but betray it into the hands of its enemies. Love for Christ, and for the souls for whom he died, will be the exact measure of our zeal in exposing the dangers by which mens' souls are ensnared." 2. Those that accept the narrow path of truth will be in the minority, and thus will have a lonely walk, and inevitably, according to the Holy Bible's testimony, will be viewed as divisive. A Christian is not called to be popular. Each of us are called to please God, to be "...approved unto God..."(2 Timothy 2:15), not men, and to be faithful to God(notice I said faithful, not successful-success is the LORD's responsibility), not men(Proverbs 29:25,Acts 5:29,Galatians 1:10,Eph. 6:6, Colossians 3:22, 2 Cor. 4:2, 1 Thel. 2:4, John 5:44,John 12:43). Scripture repeatedly testifies that those who align themselves with this great Saviour of ours, the Lord Jesus Christ, will be hated by the world. The world wants approval, not truth. Why should this be so surprising? The Lord himself was hated 2000 years ago, and is hated today. We should expect ! no diffe rent. And I have no allusions, nor should expect nothing different, in my walk as a dispensationalist , one who "rightly divides the word of truth"(2 Timothy 2:15), and in my walk as a King James Bible believer: a lonely walk, a life of rejection, and the reputation of being , yes, divisive. That, my fellow brothers and sisters "in and with Christ", is not only the inevitable fate of those whom the LORD God calls his own(1 Cor. 6:20, 7:23), it is also the essence of our sanctification by our LORD God, who holds each and every one of to his standards, not ours. In and with Christ, John M. Whalen |
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#20
10-14-2008, 09:14 AM
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John,
That was a very good post my friend. I also am a I am a dispensationalist, I think anyone must be unless they have a very bad understanding of the Bible and how to apply what parts of the Bible apply to you and what parts of the Bible do not apply to you. This is a basic short outline I obtained from Dr. Billy Kanoy many years ago. He preached on this issue and gave the best short lesson on the topic I have ever heard in my life. Sadly Dr. Kanoy is no longer with us to help folks like me learn more about God's Word. I have yet to see anyone have a shorter and better outline on the dispensations than Dr. Billy Kanoy. He gave out many copies of this simple yet wonderful outline. Go check out Dr. Billy Kanoy at the link below. For some odd reason he never got really big in Baptist circles. I have no idea as to why, he is one of the smartest preachers I have ever listened to in my life. http://www.preacherscorner.org/kanoy.htm This is the best link for Dr. Kanoy's sermons, this link has more of them. http://johnnythebaptist.com/badf2.html Oh how we need 10,00 men of God like Dr. Billy Kanoy preaching the truth of God's Word today in our sinful nation today. I would strongly recommend that any Bible student, layman or pastor listen to Dr. Kanoy. He was a brilliant man who knew the Bible better than just about anyone I've ever heard in my life. Quote:
Atlas Last edited by atlas; 10-14-2008 at 09:32 AM. |
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