[peopleoftheway]

Brother George, and thank you.

God Bless

[boaz212]

Thank you all again for responding to my question. I do read them several times and prayerfully consider the scriptures and the reasonings you have put down.
Thanks George for more of the foundational studies that will help my overall study of the word of God. I appreciate your time and thorough explanations.
Please take care.

[Winman]

Bro George

Thanks for both of those great posts. And I did not take offence. And perhaps you may misundertand what I meant to say. I completely agree with you that we are to have both the qualities of a child and an adult.

1 Cor 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

So, I did not for one moment mean to imply that we should be childlike in every aspect of our Christian walk. We are to study and grow always.

What I meant was that sometimes a person can over analyze scripture. Instead of reading a verse that is very simple and straightforward to understood, some try to spiritualize it, and make it mean more than it really does.

The verse in question was John 12:32

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

To which Chette replied:

Who was John written too? Is it before the Cross or After the cross? Why did Jesus Say what he said in light of the OT?

right division and context is needed in such verses. it in no wise teaches Calvinism

To me, "all men" means just that "all men". Simple. As I pointed out, it does not say that all men who are drawn will be saved. This misunderstanding some people get results from not reading the verse straightforward, and reading into it things it does not say.

John 6:44 does say that no man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now, if a person assumes that only persons drawn are saved, then you have the Calvinist view. But even that is wrong, because John 12:32 says all men will be drawn, therefore all would be saved.

So, this is reading into the verse what it does not say. Sometimes you have to simply read the verse as is.

Now, I appreciate your post about failure #3, how people are not properly taught to study the Bible, and I hope you do not take offence, but you can over-study. Maybe that is not the right way to say it. What I mean is that sometimes you have to take scripture for simply what is says directly, and not always assume it has some greater or different meaning than what it actually says.

I hope you understand what I mean. Sometimes we fail to see the forest for the trees. I think you might understand what I mean by that.

But your posts were great and I enjoyed them both.

[George]

Brother Winman's quote:

"Now, I appreciate your post about failure #3, how people are not properly taught to study the Bible, and I hope you do not take offence, but you can over-study. Maybe that is not the right way to say it. What I mean is that sometimes you have to take scripture for simply what is says directly, and not always assume it has some greater or different meaning than what it actually says.

I hope you understand what I mean. Sometimes we fail to see the forest for the trees. I think you might understand what I mean by that."

Aloha brother Winman,

I am not offended in the least, and I also agree with you 100%. I believe that there must be "BALANCE" in our Christian walk; and our life in Christ cannot just be about "STUDY". And not only that but we have to be very careful when we do "rightly divide the word of truth" - that we "rightly divide" it, and NOT "CHOP IT UP" so much that it has no bearing or application to us.

This is not always easy; but if a believer approaches God's word simply and with a "sincere" heart, I believe that God will show him spiritual "things" that he will not show the "best & the brightest" that the "Bible" colleges have to offer.

That's why, as a Bible believing Christian, I say that I embrace a MODERATE Dispensationalism. I believe that the entire Bible is written for our learning and edification; it's just that not all of it applies to us, and that is where "rightly dividing the word of truth" comes in.

[chette777]

Great study KEYS George thanks.

I am not sure what Winman is trying to say or insinuating about my remarks in my post but my remarks in post #3 are clear instructions on following the general rules of Bible study Observation, Interpretation and Application. I made no reference to its meaning or application.

for the record I am a moderate dispensationalist.

[kns215]

The problem is (according to the Bible) “spiritual things” are taught by the Holy Ghost and NOT by man, and so, although students who attend Bible schools may acquire a lot of KNOWLEDGE about the Bible; church history; etc.; - they CANNOT acquire spiritual DISCERNMENT, UNDERSTANDING, or WISDOM, from a school (or those who teach) since these “spiritual things” CANNOT be taught by men!

That hit me hard. Not because I believe I have so much knowledge about the Bible, but because I actually have been praying for wisdom, understanding, and especially DISCERNMENT from God. I really do not want to be "tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine".
Thank you for explaining the important keys simply, brother George. It makes my heart bit lighter in question to what should I do to study the Bible.

[ScotArt]

George
You posted
Quote
"The problem is (according to the Bible) “spiritual things” are taught by the Holy Ghost and NOT by man, and so, although students who attend Bible schools may acquire a lot of KNOWLEDGE about the Bible; church history; etc.; - they CANNOT acquire spiritual DISCERNMENT, UNDERSTANDING, or WISDOM, from a school (or those who teach) since these “spiritual things” CANNOT be taught by men!"

Not to be pendantic but are you not here applying restrictions to where and when and with whom the Holy Spirit may work and reveal Truth and wisdom.
Does the Holy Spirit spend time away from the "student" that his ability to "spiritually discern" is not in place for that particular time frame?
Also does the Holy Spirit not use "means" such as the pastor, teacher, faith sharer??? Is that "means" ie the Christian involved as instrument of Truth/wisdom, not also provided with grace and the Spirits divine power to bring the Word within the discernment provided for the hearer/student?

If I have misread your article I do apologise. But I don't see "spiritual discernment" as having an on/off switch in the true believer, whether they are being used by the Holy Spirit to communicate the Word or receive the Word. The Holy Spirit is surely a permanent resident when "indwelling" in the Christian. This would imply that HIS work is ongoing and continuous!

In Christ.
Art.

[chette777]

Scotart,

Our spiritual life does indeed have and on off switch because of our sin nature. that is why Paul encourages us not to quench or grieve the Holy Ghost. depending on many factors you can indeed turn off the Holy Ghost. Intellectual Pride, continued unconfessed sin, cultural contamination (worldliness), changing the word of God to conform to scholastic interpretation just to name a few.

There are many and subtle ways in which we can turn off spiritual discernment and other spiritual activities in our life. The way to keep them on is where most lack the ability. Prayer, Purity, and Permissiveness of the Holy Ghost

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

Originally Posted by boaz212

I had a discussion with some friends who believe in predestination taught by John Calvin. One of their strongest argument is based on John 6...

Their emphasis is on the drawing of the Father, without which no one can come to Christ to be saved. Therefore, their conclusion is that the Father chooses whom He would save and give them to His Son so they can believe on Him...

Boaz, please be advised...
tulip or no tulip, once you get past the flower it's still Calvinism—stinking like a dead catfish in the sunlight. The problem with Calvinism is they always end up forcing God to predestinate certain people to hell. However we know that God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance. (II Peter 3:9) Don't ever forget that.

Predestination in the KJV is ALWAYS associated with and based on FOREKNOWLEDGE, and God's foreknowledge existed before the foundation of the world. (Eph. 1:4, 2 Timothy 1:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13) God's foreknowledge allowed Him to look down through time and KNOW who would accept the Saviour, and God then elected them, called them and predestinated them to glorification (Rom. 8:29-30). But it all STARTED with free will and foreknowledge. Nothing like a King James Bible to clear up doctrinal issues.

Beware the "tulip" doctrine of Calvinism, it is a leaven that can lead to much confusion. Stay in that KJV, and don't argue with these people. More here from Jack Hyles:
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books..._salvation.htm

[chette777]

Boaz212,

In regards to Predestination. Study the context of the passages where the word predestinate and predestinated are used it is always applied to someone who is already saved. this would make them church doctrines. never is predestinated used in context for unbelievers. it is something applied only to person already in Christ

Rom 8:29, 30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Eph 1:5, 11 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, . . . In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: