[Debau]

AJ,
How do you reconcile Rev 14:11,
"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever" ?
cf. Rev 20:10-15, Is 34:1

"Saved" loses its meaning when there is nothing to be saved from. As I said, seperation from God would please many.

So, fear of hell is mankind's way of controlling the masses, but love for God is the way of liberty.

Hell is hardly mankinds' way of controlling the masses. Folks are oblivious to it. Would that the preacher could make the masses feel the flames of Hell, there would be revival! Turn to the Lord in fear, and grow in Him in love.

[Easy E]

Recall that Jesus also went to hell:
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

That is not talking about Jesus that is talking about the Devil (Is 14:12). What junk Bible version are you reading? I suggest that you get a real Bible and READ IT.

I'm sorry but if you miss something simple like that, why would I trust any of the rest of your ideas?

AJ,
How do you reconcile Rev 14:11,
"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever" ?
cf. Rev 20:10-15, Is 34:1

"Saved" loses its meaning when there is nothing to be saved from. As I said, separation from God would please many

.

There was a TV documentary of a Bishop (Should of have taken notes) who wrestled with the all saved concept.

The problem he encountered was that if he wrote the churches statement on salvation as “all saved”, he would in fact be, as you said “loses its meaning when there is nothing to be saved from”.

He wrestled with it without sleep for 2 or 3 days until he came to a conclution.

He, understood the concept of universal salvation, but feared the people wouldn’t, so he wrote the churches statement to reflect a fear of hell.

He understood that hell would be a driving force, and I will agree that it is.

But greater force would it be if we could come to God acknowledging the gift of life, being appreciative of it, in the face of a hellish world environment.

Our convictions to live right would be stronger than with the fear of hell looming over us.

Now as for: Rev. 14:11. REV 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Let’s go back a few verses to establish a spiritual picture of what is going on.

REV 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
“That great city” these are coded words depicting how Jesus has fallen. Looking at the second quarter of the 24 hour day of His crucifixion being the time frame, 12 midnight to 6 am in the morning, Jesus a perfect and upright man at the Garden takes on the sins of the world on His shoulders, thus “fallen”. Or say taking the fall for us.
Jesus has made us drink of His sufferings, by joining Him. 1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
REV 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,REV 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Here we have again a spiritual picture depicting the elements involved the day of His crucifixion.
To the Jewish believer of His day, Jesus was blasphemer, a breaker of Sabbaths and a mingle-er with sinners, thus in a way a beast, that should not be worshipped.

We are looking at the third quarter of the crucifixion day where Jesus is taken into judgment by (torment by fire=Gods word=prophecies) and by brimstone. (Breath of the Lord or Holy Spirit)

At the same time Jesus is sitting in judgment of His tormentors, for in His love for them and all mankind, His judgment is with love and forgiveness, and takes on the costs of the cross for us.

And now your verse: REV 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Smoke is representative of sins on that day of His crucifixion, of which they, the crucifiers have no rest, for in serving they are worshiping, and they are sealed in their foreheads not to see Jesus in order for Jesus to be offered up by them.

In their offering up of Jesus, they are held sinless, for that was a form of their worship.

The spiritual picture is what needs be seen in all the descriptive wordings in the bible.

As for: “Hell is hardly mankind’s' way of controlling the masses. Folks are oblivious to it. Would that the preacher could make the masses feel the flames of Hell, there would be revival! Turn to the Lord in fear, and grow in Him in love.”

Agreed, some people need a fire placed in the right areas in order to bring them to Christ, but much of it is short lived, for fear is the motivator rather than love.

A person coming to Christ with love, will sincerely “want” to live right out of shear appreciation.

My view, of course.

Peace>>>AJ

Originally Posted by Easy E

That is not talking about Jesus that is talking about the Devil (Is 14:12). What junk Bible version are you reading? I suggest that you get a real Bible and READ IT.

I'm sorry but if you miss something simple like that, why would I trust any of the rest of your ideas?

Easy, unless one lets Jesus go to hell for us, we shall not be saved!

Jesus , as you know paid the price for us, meaning, took hell for us, if you know what i mean?

He gifted us with life because of that, and now, you are the recipient of that wonderful love that lives forever.

Peace>>>AJ

[Easy E]

Whether Jesus went to Hell or not is another issue.

But the FACT is Is 14 is talking about Lucifer (Satan) not Jesus Christ. Why should I believe anything else from a guy who can't read simple English?

Needless to say, this type of butchering seems to be typical for you. Saying that Babylon is code for Jesus is absolutely ridiculous.

I've dealt with some issues, but man, that is something. I mean saying Babylon is Rome is one thing, but this is...wow. You seem like a nice person and polite, but are you a mormon or JW, what is this?

Whether Jesus went to Hell or not is another issue.

But the FACT is Is 14 is talking about Lucifer (Satan) not Jesus Christ. Why should I believe anything else from a guy who can't read simple English?

Needless to say, this type of butchering seems to be typical for you. Saying that Babylon is code for Jesus is absolutely ridiculous.

I've dealt with some issues, but man, that is something. I mean saying Babylon is Rome is one thing, but this is...wow. You seem like a nice person and polite, but are you a Mormon or JW, what is this?

Last question first, I am neither, just a simple believer in Jesus my Savior.
Apart from Him, there is nothing else!

Lucifer, in light of the works of God is? Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Nations: REV 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

The nations weakened is Jesus Lord over, for He was under their power as a prince at His crucifixion, but afterwards, Jesus is King.

Who but Jesus keepeth the works unto the end and given power over the nations?
REV 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
REV 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.
The morning star is seeing Lucifer in scriptures is really looking at Jesus in hell on the second day, he opened not the house of his prisoners because they must wait for the 3rd day. at this point Jesus descends into hell and fulfills the scriptures in Isaiah 14:12
ISA 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! =according to God's word when Jesus takes all sin.
ISA 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. =fulfilling scriptures, Jesus is the son of perdition.
ISA 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;=notice, the word "man", this is Jesus.
ISA 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Notice they are his prisoners, this is one of the prophecies, that Jesus would set the prisoners free=(Isaiah 61:1). He does but this is the second day, he must wait till the 3rd day, this second day they look on him because he has revived them out of sleep, they were asleep till Jesus died for sin.

HOS 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. HOS 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth. =as God said, he makes the rain to fall on the just and unjust=pours out the righteousness of Christ on all mankind=job 33:26

Now, if God would off have kept Jesus out of hell, then the prisoners would have never know Jesus as we know Him today.

Peace>>>AJ

[Easy E]

Ok, where to start?

Sir, I honestly want to ask you, do you want to learn here or are you just here to plead your cause? Listen, you might be able to learn something here.

Remember, Study to shew thyself approved unto God a workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2Tim 2:15

Look. Who is Rev 2 addressed to and who is speaking? This is Jesus Christ speaking to the angel of the church of Thyatira. Right? That is what Rev 1:16-20 says. Jesus Christ is addressing his churches. This has nothing to do with Jesus preaching to people in prison. It just doesn't.

Back to Isaiah 14. Still not Jesus, even with the messed up cross reference to Rev 2. You conveniently leave out vs. 14, where we see this "Lucifer's" goals. "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds: I will be like the most High." Jesus doesn't need to do anything to "be like the most High" He is the most High, he is God. This is Satan, no doubt about it.

fulfilling scriptures, Jesus is the son of perdition

Wow " Joh_17:12, While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." Jesus lost himself. This makes no sense and I feel kinda weird even responding to it. Do you even know what "perdition" means? Please, enlighten us with the proper understanding of that word.

notice, the word "man", this is Jesus

That is ridiculous. There are many "men" why would this be Jesus. This means nothing.

Hosea 6:2 The context is Israel. Not anything else. Please tell us why you figured that Hosea was talking about anything other than the children of Israel.

There is so much in this post. I hope this helps man. Please consider the context. If you don't the Bible says that you are "wresting" the scriptures unto your own destruction.

[Easy E]

Jesus is King

Do you mean Jesus is reigning right now? Because even though He might be reigning in our hearts, he is not exercising power over the nations of this world. If all the nations were his right now, He would be doing a horrible job. If you haven't noticed, the world is a horrible place. In the future, my friend, he will reign Luke 1:32,33 and Rev 19,20. But not right now.

This is what happens when you try and fit Revelations into the past. IT IS FUTURE!

Look. Who is Rev 2 addressed to and who is speaking? This is Jesus Christ speaking to the angel of the church of Thyatira. Right? That is what Rev 1:16-20 says. Jesus Christ is addressing his churches. This has nothing to do with Jesus preaching to people in prison. It just doesn't.>>>

The very first verse of Revelation 1 tells us who the book is about:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
It is about Him, which God gave unto Him to show unto His servant’s things which must shortly come to pass.

Now, I would like to make notice of three things which tells us about the timing of what is in the contents of that verse.

First, is “to shew” present tense, meaning while Jesus is still with His disciples
Second, “things which must shortly come to pass” meaning within His life time
Third, sent notice to John, not John the Apostle, but john the Baptist, who: REV 1:2 Who bare record.
Joh 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.


John the Apostle doesn’t come in until verse 4 because if you look at verse 10 we see that Jesus has already risen and is talking to John in spirit: REV 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

John hears the voice from “behind”, meaning in times past as when Jesus was crucified, for it was the Lord’s Day, not Sunday, but the day the Lord did His work.

And you are correct that Jesus is speaking to John after the crucifixion giving us the details via John the works of Christ on that particular day.

The picture is this: Jesus was about to embark on a 7-day creation, re-creation period (One Day) in order to cover every soul that ever lived, including those held in prison, called hell.

Seven churches, seven candlesticks, vials and all sevens are but a picture of Jesus visiting each one of those days in order to cover them all and then recreating a New Creation, a new week of 7’s of which there is to be no end.

If you look at the story of Job, you will see a similitude of that picture, with Job visiting his 7 sons and offering sacrifices for them.

JOB 1:2 And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters.

I’ll leave that here for later discussion if interested.

Back to Isaiah 14. Still not Jesus, even with the messed up cross reference to Rev 2. You conveniently leave out vs. 14, where we see this "Lucifer's" goals. "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds: I will be like the most High." Jesus doesn't need to do anything to "be like the most High" He is the most High, he is God. This is Satan, no doubt about it.

ISA 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Jesus did say he will ascend into heaven, the stars of God are likened in scriptures as the seed of Abraham, Jesus said "no man cometh unto the father but by me" this is exalting his throne above them.
ISA 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
The clouds are likened to sin in Isaiah 44:22, he ascends above sin by overcoming them by his death. Jesus said "if you have seen me, you have seen the father" so he will be like the most high. God is a spirit in heaven, Jesus not yet when he said this.

Easy E, my objective is to inform by presenting a different view.
I expect some hostility, but my intention is to educate.
Now, if this information offends, please hit the ignore button and you shall not hear from me again.

I come from a Southern Baptist up bringing, and still hold true to the concept of Jesus being my only foundation, my Savior and friend.

There is no other foundation to lay, only that one which He has laid.

My views and understandings are from studying, questioning the traditional beliefs and wanting God to give me understandings on the end time scenarios, of which we both know, are many versions and not one sure one.

I can only share what I’ve learned and hope that some who are seeking a deeper understanding will make up their minds what to accept or reject.

Peace>>>AJ

Originally Posted by Easy E

Do you mean Jesus is reigning right now? Because even though He might be reigning in our hearts, he is not exercising power over the nations of this world. If all the nations were his right now, He would be doing a horrible job. If you haven't noticed, the world is a horrible place. In the future, my friend, he will reign Luke 1:32,33 and Rev 19,20. But not right now.

This is what happens when you try and fit Revelations into the past. IT IS FUTURE!

A prince is groomed to be king.
Jesus surrendered to the kings of the earth (His tormentors) and at His Crucifixion, He becomes their King!

Revelation is of "that day" when Jesus finished His work on the cross and reigns as King.

He reigns in the hearts of His believers as King over their souls.

Peace>>>AJ