Sorry, I'm only two years older than you. I must be feeling old today.

[George]

Originally Posted by Connie

It's scripture, George. Your words above are judging what scripture says. Why all this concern about a fleshly observance, you ask? It's PAUL's "fleshly observance" if so, George. It is what PAUL, that is, GOD'S WORD, says. What he says is clearly about a PHYSICAL REQUIREMENT. Should I just decide that I can ignore the teachings not to dress elaborately (braid and decorate the hair etc), or dress modestly, that that's just too physical a thing to occupy myself with? Should it then not bother you if a man shows up in church with long hair or a hat on? Isn't that just a carnal preoccupation with physical stuff?

This isn't church, where a woman is required to be silent and listen. Paul didn't say I had to have nothing to say ever anywhere. There is no pastor over the proceedings here. This is a forum. I'm not setting myself up as an authority, I simply did a study last year about a part of scripture I had come to feel strongly about that it seems is neglected and misunderstood. Just as I believe you are misunderstanding it. If you won't consider it based on the facts I've assembled, maybe some of the male teachers at the links would be more persuasive. They're all men except Mary Kassian.

I'm only a woman but nobody else is saying this so I'm running it by people here and there to see if anyone will consider it. I've come to believe that there are many things that are contributing to the powerlessness of the churches these days, and they include the rejection of the headcovering which was practiced pretty universally in the churches until about the 60s. Yes, it sounds carnal, but it's there in the Word of God and after spending much time on it I don't see any other way to rightly understand it. (Even if you think it's preaching long hair, that's a carnal concern too by the way.) The use of the false Bible versions is another reason for the powerlessness. Pursuing that subject is what got me here.

That's OK, if I'm considered out of order here for having a strong opinion I can back up with evidence, I will desist.

Connie,

Your reply to my comments are instructive on why a woman should not be trying to instruct (teaching) men.

"It's scripture George". What kind of a lame answer is that? It doesn't say anything and it doesn't shed any light on the subject at hand. Again you say: "Your words above are judging what scripture says". I wasn't doing anything of the sort! You had 2 men that answered your question from the "scriptures" and you instantly went into a "pet" doctrine or belief of yours without even considering that either one of these men might have spent as much time studying the matter as you have (or maybe more).

I was trying to put the matter in perspective i.e. the importance of spiritual matters over against physical observances. [Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.]

I was trying to understand WHY you would ask this question, when you were all prepared to "instruct" us with your extensive studies. I simply pointed out what the scriptures say, nay command, about a woman teaching a man.

Let me be clear - if a woman comes to our church neither I nor my fellow elder-pastor have anything to say to her, as long as she conducts herself as befitting a Christian woman and dresses modestly. The same goes for any man that may come to our services. We don't get in their face about long hair, or beards, or manner of dress as long as they too conduct themselves as is befitting a Christian man and dresses modestly. (in Hawaii we don't have a "strict" dress code - people are not "required to "dress-up" to come to church).

As to your reply: "This isn't church, where a woman is required to be silent and listen." I don't see anywhere in 1 or 2 Timothy, or Titus for that matter, where these instructions and commandments about women - which were given to the men that were Paul's helpers, were limited to a Christian's conduct in church only - where is that? On the other hand, when Paul is instructing the church at Corinth, he clearly is talking about a woman's conduct in church. 1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Have you always "observed" this commandment from the Apostle Paul? Do most women in the Western world observe this commandment when in church? - I trow not! Am I going to go on a witch hunt and either condemn them or even try to convince them that they are sinning because they are not following the clear commandment of the Apostle Paul?

For you to "feel strongly" about this matter is one thing - but we Christians are not to go on our "feelings", we are to: 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. "Feelings" have nothing to do with the Truth!

In your posts you site: Tertullian; Mary Kassian; Marlowe; Brian Schwertley; Watchman Nee; Tom Shank; Amy Carmichael; and David Bercot as "authorities" (You even appeal to the "Greek"). In addition you make the assumption (based on the "authorities"?) that: "Historically Paul was understood by all the churches to require a cloth headcovering, which is demonstrated by the fact that women in the Christianized West covered their heads not only in church but at all times up until very recently, which made it specifically the custom of Christendom." When you talk abot "Christendom" or the "Christianized West" - are you referring to the Roman Catholic church? (We should be paying attention to the Catholic Church's practices and or observances? Are you serious?)

Thomas Schreiner and Spiros Zodhiates mean nothing to me. I don't follow men (or women for that matter). I look to God's words in the "scriptures of truth" for all matters of doctrine and faith. And the scriptures simply say: 1Corinthians 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. What part of this verse don't you understand? Her hair is her covering! You and all of your "authorities" can believe or "feel" whatever you want - but please don't give me: "I've come to believe that there are many things that are contributing to the powerlessness of the churches these days, and they include the rejection of the headcovering which was practiced pretty universally in the churches until about the 60s."

I got saved in 1958 and attended Plymouth Brethren, brethren, Independent Bible, Pentecostal, and Baptist churches in the time frame that you mention. None of the women in those churches wore "coverings" over their heads, with the exception of the Plymouth Brethren & brethren churches. (Some of us are old enough {ancient?} to know what took place in the distant past). Of course the Roman Catholic church has practised this for centuries.

Finally I would like to make a comparison between that which is essential (the spiritual) and that which is not essential (physical). There are 950 occurences of the word heart or hearts in 880 verses in our Bible. All of those verses refer to a heart (spiritual - not physical) with the exception of only 12-13 verses which refer to the physical heart; the heart of Egypt; the heart of the sea; the heart of the Earth, etc. WHY? Why are you hung-up on a head covering (approximately 16 verses), when there are many more spiritual matters in the scriptures that you should have a concern about?

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

All of mankind (Men & Women) has a heart problem (even Christians - even me!)

Proverbs 5:12 And say, How have I hated instruction, and my heart despised reproof;
Proverbs 8:5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
Proverbs 14:33 Wisdom resteth in the heart of him that hath understanding: but that which is in the midst of fools is made known.
Proverbs 18:15 The heart of the prudent getteth knowledge; and the ear of the wise seeketh knowledge.
Proverbs 23:12 Apply thine heart unto instruction, and thine ears to the words of knowledge.

Please notice: The Lord is talking about the heart of man (and women) not the mind!
Modern day Christianity is full of Sophists (Humanists - Psychiatry & Psychology) - people who have "knowledge"; who are always seeking solutions and answers with the mind only; but who have neglected the matters of the heart.

Real Bible knowledge, discernment, understanding, and wisdom comes from God - not man. We are to: "Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Psalms 119:11 NOTICE: David didn't say he hid God's word in his mind!

Proverbs 4:23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by Connie

Oh many reasons why it isn't hair. First, if Paul had meant hair, he wouldn't have spent 15 verses to say it, and say it in such a roundabout way.

In context verse 15 is clearly meant to be an example from nature for why women should cover their heads.

Well, that just doesn't make any sense to me. Verse 15 says her hair is given her for a covering. All the history and sermons about women covering their heads with something besides their hair really isn't relevant to me, since the Bible says so clearly what a woman's covering is.

I'm not saying women can't cover their head if they want to. Honestly I don't really care what women other than my wife do.

Verse 13 says "judge in yourselves" and verse 14 says "nature itself teach you." I think it's a mistake to make legalistic rules out of such things, especially rules that add to what the Bible already laid out, as in verse 15.

[Renee]

Got your message. Aren't you glad the Lord will straighten us out when we get there? He will show us what the truth is and guess what, we aren't (neither of us) even going to say I told you so. I have set my heart in believing what God says and to the best of my ability to do it. My authority is God and He speaks to me through His word. I have not gone outside of the Bible, except for my husband, (which is biblical) for spiritual understanding. The matter is settled in my heart, my hair is my covering. I commend you on your hair length. Most women our age have hair above their ears.

I'm sorry people, I tend to get very intensely involved in issues like this that I think are important, but if nobody else is interested or willing to consider my point of view it's best to drop it.

To me to present a thought-out argument isn't "instructing," it's presenting it for others to think through. You'll either agree with it or not, but it would take time and thought to get into the issue. I didn't just toss off my study overnight. It took work.

Most of your post is preaching to the choir, George, that is, I agree with you, about Catholicism and your other generalizations, but I believe it's best not to discuss any of this any further.

I didn't mean to present my links as "authorities" by the way. I never heard of most of them before. I simply found their sermons or discussions and followed their line of argument myself and ended up thinking they were getting at the true meaning of the passage. It's not an easy passage to understand in our day unfortunately, it does take some time to get into it.

Let's be in the peace of Christ and consider this subject ended.

You're very right, Renee. The Lord reads the heart and whichever of us is right or wrong He knows we both are doing it to please Him.

[George]

Originally Posted by Connie

I'm sorry people, I tend to get very intensely involved in issues like this that I think are important, but if nobody else is interested or willing to consider my point of view it's best to drop it.

To me to present a thought-out argument isn't "instructing," it's presenting it for others to think through. You'll either agree with it or not, but it would take time and thought to get into the issue. I didn't just toss off my study overnight. It took work.

Most of your post is preaching to the choir, George, that is, I agree with you, about Catholicism and your other generalizations, but I believe it's best not to discuss any of this any further.

I didn't mean to present my links as "authorities" by the way. I never heard of most of them before. I simply found their sermons or discussions and followed their line of argument myself and ended up thinking they were getting at the true meaning of the passage. It's not an easy passage to understand in our day unfortunately, it does take some time to get into it.

Let's be in the peace of Christ and consider this subject ended.

Sister Connie,

I'm all for that, and I try to remember the "ministry" that God has given me.
2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

But sometimes in my zeal for "sound doctrine" I may lose track of the "ministry" and forget to edify - if at all possible.
Romans 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
1 Corinthians 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
1 Thessalonians 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

George

Thank you, brother George, and I'll add that because I do get so caught up in things like this I really don't know what I'm supposed to do with them as a woman. Maybe I think too much. I guess I need to just leave it alone and let the Lord do anything if anything is to be done at all. I don't like the feeling of trying to persuade men about it, I just get into thinking, "Well but if I AM right about this, people have to know about it so I have to convince them by making the best possible case." But it's the Lord who has to lead, and I'm not letting Him lead when I do this.

I think I'm going to take a break from the internet and just pray for a while.

God bless.

[Renee]

Hi Connie,
The biggist lesson I get from 1Cor: 1-16 is that The Head of the man is Christ, The head of the woman is the man. When women reject this basic Bible principle it causes a lot of pain and discord in marriage, in the family, in the Church. I am thankful and blessed that My Lord has given me a faithful and spirit filled husband that I can look to for guidance.

"All His Works are done in truth"

This is the goal we have set for our lives, we want only to set forth The truth that God has for His people. Discernment and wisdom comes from God, not just age. When a matter is not clear to me, I find it best to read the verses in question over and over a lot of times. I have found that if the Lord wants you to know He will reveal it to you.

To me the head covering is a past subject but I just had to (like a woman) put my two cents in.

In Sisterly love,
Renee

you

Thanks for your two cents, Renee, and you know us women, now I have to answer with my two cents worth but I'll try to keep it from becoming more than that.

You and George are indeed blessed to have a marriage based in the word of God. Since I live alone, as I understand it, male headship means submitting to male leaders in appropriate positions over me in the church, and I suppose that also means accepting their judgment that the head covering is not for today when I'm in that kind of church (although my pastor told me I had to obey my conscience about this so I have to wear something on my head now).

I did read the passage over and over and as I read it Paul is not talking about marriage here or any kind of male-female relationship, but about how we are to appear in congregational worship. It's about how God wants His creation principle of male headship expressed in worship in the church assembly, in the sight of the witnessing angels, and that is by the man's keeping his head literally uncovered to honor Christ, and the woman literally covering hers, including covering her hair, to cover the glory of man and honor God's creation order. That also is apparently how the early church understood it.

(To George: In coming to this conclusion myself I'm in disagreement with a lot of well known evangelical preachers today, and liked the arguments of unknown writers and speakers more, so it's certainly not that I've been influenced by authorities. None of the well-known pastors and teachers believe Paul meant hair, however, or any of the older commentators like Matthew Henry or Jamieson Faussett and Brown or Calvin either.)